Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

I just watched about a third of his video questioning the local church ground, it's entitled "Is the Lord's recovery right about the ground of the church?"

Gotta hand it to you, Jay: you've probably picked the funnest one. I suggest watching it all. Maybe even read some of the comments. I'll be providing you some feedback on your thoughts regarding this video and the video itself as soon as I can.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Gotta hand it to you, Jay: you've probably picked the funnest one. I suggest watching it all. Maybe even read some of the comments. I'll be providing you some feedback on your thoughts regarding this video and the video itself as soon as I can.

Ha ha ok. Well it was literally the first video that popped up in search. The guy talks in circles which is usually something people who don't know what they're talking about do

[ACuriousFellow]

I can't agree with him, I don't think he's correct. He's actually conflating the genuine ground of oneness and the ground of the church. Those are two separate things.

-Jay

You are always free to disagree.

You made a statement that this YouTuber is conflating the doctrine of the “Ground of Oneness” and the doctrine of the “Ground of the Church” which is sometimes referred to as the “Ground of Locality.” To say that one can be conflated with the other in this particular case is like saying water and H2O can be conflated. They may have different names, but they are essentially the same thing. You don’t even have to just take my word for it. Let’s take a look at a primary source on the matter:

Our Need to Meet on the Ground of Oneness

We all who are outside the “small circles” need to meet together, but on what ground should we meet? If we are clear concerning the truth, we will say that we should meet on the ground of oneness. The reason that we do not go to a Baptist or Presbyterian denomination is that they are on divisive grounds. We are meeting on the ground of the church, the ground of oneness, the local ground. We must consider what the local ground is. The bible reveals to us that the church takes the locality where it is as its boundary. The church in Kaohsiung takes the city of Kaohsiung as its boundary, and the church in Taipei takes the city of Taipei as its boundary. The local ground is the ground of oneness, the ground of the church. Although most Christians today have divided into many denominations, we do not want to be divided. We care to remain on the ground of oneness. Some may say, “You claim to be standing on the ground of oneness, but by doing this you divide yourself from all the other ‘churches.’” However, the responsibility of division is not with us but with them. We have always kept ourselves in the church as the “big circle” on the ground of oneness. It is others who are not willing to drop their names and leave the way of many “small circles.” Therefore, we have not divided from them; they have divided from us.

(The Transformation of Life and the Building Up of the Church, Chapter 10: The Ground of the Oneness of the Church as Our Way, pp. 351-352, from The Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1966, vol. 3, published by Living Stream Ministry)

We have the ground of oneness, the ground of the church, and the ground of locality being presented by Lee himself, and it was done so quite explicitly. These three things have not been conflated by the YouTuber in question because they cannot be conflated. They are all different names for the same general concept of how a church should meet locally, placing emphasis primarily on how a church, an assembly of saints, names itself. As such, this particular point you made cannot readily discount how this YouTuber presented Lee’s teaching, for he rightly identified not only its name but its purpose and function. I’ll address your other statements at a later point in time, but I figured this was a good place to start.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

You are always free to disagree.....

Well I can't find that particular book online, it does show that that book is in Lee's collection. But I have no way to read it to verify if that is exactly what he said. Not calling you a liar or anything, but I just want to read it myself. But I went to one of his titles called 'The genuine ground of the church.' In chapter 4 he seems to differentiate between the ground of the church and the ground of oneness; "This is the place of God’s choice, the unique place He has chosen for keeping the oneness." Maybe the LC are conflating the two. Or maybe I'm wrong for NOT conflating the two. But as far as I know they are two different things. I think Lee's thought is that unless one comes to God's unique place of meeting that it's impossible to keep the oneness. He mentions that the reason why Christians shop around for a church that suits them is because of their own selfish and lustful desires in ways of worship. To seek out a church that suits you is something of the soul, not something of the spirit. That sounds agreeable. Either way you can't discount Deuteronomy 12:11 which clearly says that God has a unique place of meeting. And you simply can't say that the New Testament doesn't give us a very clear example of that with the local churches in Acts and the epistles

[ACuriousFellow]

All of the resources from The Lord's Recovery that I quote are available on Living Stream Ministry's website called ministrybooks.org. Some books are not available without a paid subscription.

His main argument is that the ground of the church is not necessary because the ground of oneness is all that's needed according to his estimation of the Bible. However this isn't fundamentally sound if we look at the what the Bible actually says and what the Bible actually practiced. Deuteronomy 12:11 says that we do not have a choice where we meet, it's wholly up to God, and we have to go where his choice is.

-Jay

If we are being specific, he is saying that Witness Lee’s teaching of the ground of the church, which was crafted according to his estimation of the Bible, is not necessary. Witness Lee claims that a proper and legitimate church can and should only identify itself based on the boundaries of whatever city it is in, and that everyone else is causing division solely based on the name of their meeting hall or congregation rather than the condition of their hearts or righteous living and without any regard to the fact that many of these groups are more than happy to fellowship with one another and don’t care what the other groups call themselves.

As for your verse reference, one must always consider the proper context of the scriptures they use. Let’s bring it up, shall we? I’ll throw in some verses before and after for greater context out of the goodness of my heart.

Deuteronomy 12:8-14

8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord. 12 And there rejoice before the Lord your God—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levites from your towns who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

There are two very important questions that I believe most of us know the answer to. First, who was the Lord speaking to? The answer: Israel. Second, how did the Lord have Israel follow up on this command found in Deuteronomy? The answer: by building the temple in Jerusalem. This was a very specific command given to a very specific group of people so that they would have one place of worship and give sacrifice in the land that the Lord had given them.

Now for another question. There are many Old Testament laws, traditions, rituals, etc., that find some parallel in the new covenant established by the work of the Messiah, The Lord’s Anointed, Jesus. How is the matter of the temple paralleled in the New Testament? I’ll ask essentially the same question in another manner: Where in the scriptures can we find something that is explicitly paralleled to the temple where we are commanded to worship the Lord?

John 4:19-26

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” 25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

We can see clearly that the one place of worship in Israel, the temple, is paralleled here by the Spirit. Where else is the temple, God’s dwelling place and one place of worship and sacrifice, paralleled?

Romans 12:1-2

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Hebrews 13:11-15

11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. 15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

God’s temple, which is referred to as the one place of worship and sacrifice, is directly paralleled by the Spirit and our bodies. God’s temple, his dwelling place, is directly paralleled by the believers individually and collectively. It is paralleled by the body of Christ. Not once, however, is God’s temple, his one place of worship we must all come to whether we like it or not because we don’t get to choose… Not once is it paralleled with the physical boundaries of cities made by men.

As such, I’d say that your use of Deuteronomy 12:11 is hardly enough to justify Lee’s rabid insistence on a particular naming scheme for the assemblies of God that are based on arbitrary boundaries created by men, often pagan men.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

All of the resources I quote are available on Living Stream Ministry's website called ministrybooks.org. Some books are not available without a paid subscription........

The only problem with all of this is that 'church' means gathering of the called out ones. So we can't say that 'church' means our human spirit. That's deviating from the meaning of the word

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

The only problem with all of this is that 'church' means gathering of the called out ones. So we can't say that 'church' means our human spirit. That's deviating from the meaning of the word

And just where did I say that "church" and "human spirit" are the same thing? Can you quote me exactly?

I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where the one place of worship is said to be the Spirit. A parallel to the temple.

And I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where our bodies are explicitly called the temple of God, which is where worship and sacrifice take place.

And I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where the saints, both individually and as a whole, are themselves the temple of God and his dwelling place.

The churches are assemblies, or gatherings, of God's holy people, the saints. The universal church is the entirety of God's holy people, the saints. As such, a church, an assembly, speaks of saints collectively. Therefore, the church, this gathering of God's holy people, is God's temple.

I also noted the particular lack of scriptural references to cities and their boundaries as being parallel to God's temple.

I challenge you again, therefore, to quote me properly and show where I said that the church and our human spirit are the same thing.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

And just where did I say that "church" and "human spirit" are the same thing? Can you quote me exactly?

I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where the one place of worship is said to be the Spirit. A parallel to the temple.

And I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where our bodies are explicitly called the temple of God, which is where worship and sacrifice take place.

And I provided scriptures to show that in the New Testament, you have instances where the saints, both individually and as a whole, are themselves the temple of God and his dwelling place.

The churches are assemblies, or gatherings, of God's holy people, the saints. The universal church is the entirety of God's holy people, the saints. As such, a church, an assembly, speaks of saints collectively. Therefore, the church, this gathering of God's holy people, is God's temple.

I also noted the particular lack of scriptural references to cities and their boundaries as being parallel to God's temple.

I challenge you again, therefore, to quote me properly and show where I said that the church and our human spirit are the same thing.

Your entire point here is that we don't need a physical place to worship. Which isn't biblical. Sure technically we can praise God anywhere we are. We can do that right now wherever we are sitting, and we should. We are always encouraged to exercise our spirit in our personal lives. However this personal pursuit isn't the full picture of God's goal for his corporate people according to the Bible. We can certainly take verses out of context to support your theory. But we'd have to do so at disregarding God's obvious moves to implement the congregation life. Again, it's not hard to prove that God wants a particular place of meeting. Deuteronomy 12:11 and the local churches in Acts and the Epistles. We also have verses such as Hebrews 10:25 which say directly to not forsake the assembly. So there's no way I could disagree with Nee and Lee with regards to the local church concept and I certainly agree with them on the degradation and division of the denominations. Which are also talked about in the book of Revelation with the types of the 7 churches. The Babylonian degradation is also talked about in Deuteronomy and we see constant pictures of God's called out ones falling back to this worldly religious system and commiting spiritual fornication. Which God hates

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

You are always free to disagree.
You made a statement that this YouTuber is conflating the doctrine of the “Ground of Oneness” and the doctrine of the “Ground of the Church” which is sometimes referred to as the “Ground of Locality.” To say that one can be conflated with the other in this particular case is like saying water and H2O can be conflated. They may have different names, but they are essentially the same thing. You don’t even have to just take my word for it. Let’s take a look at a primary source on the matter:
We have the ground of oneness, the ground of the church, and the ground of locality being presented by Lee himself, and it was done so quite explicitly. These three things have not been conflated by the YouTuber in question because they cannot be conflated. They are all different names for the same general concept of how a church should meet locally, placing emphasis primarily on how a church, an assembly of saints, names itself. As such, this particular point you made cannot readily discount how this YouTuber presented Lee’s teaching, for he rightly identified not only its name but its purpose and function. I’ll address your other statements at a later point in time, but I figured this was a good place to start.

It looks like I'm incorrect. It would seem that what they mean by 'the genuine ground of oneness is the oneness of the locality.' Meaning one church per one city. Which is what this explains more clearly. I guess I had it wrong initially. I thought the oneness amongst the believers was the oneness that comes from sharing the faith. Hmm, interesting though because I think at other times in different contexts Lee has said that to keep the oneness is just to accept other believers. I could be wrong on that too. But anyway here is a link that kind of consolidates what they mean by ground of oneness and locality

https://agodman.com/taking-the-lead-...0to%20be%20one

An interesting quote from the link-

Even though we may meet some with some other saints that are not like us but quite different from us, we don’t just “move to another church” if we don’t like someone but pay the price to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. We realize that there has to be a local church as a local expression of the universal Body of Christ so that the church may exist, may be expressed, and may be practiced in a practical way.

Without the local church, the universal church is abstract – even non-existent; but when we touch the local church on the ground of oneness, the universal church is real and full of meaning. How can we practice being in the church? It is by being in the local church. Where is the expression of the church? Where can we find the church today? It is in the local churches; the only place where we can see the universal church being expressed is the local churches

The Lord said that He will build His church: where does this building take place? It takes place in spirit, but the place where this happens is the local church, the local expression of the universal church on the ground of oneness

The practice of the church life in the early days was the practice of having one church for one city, one city with only one church; in no city was there “more than one church” (see Acts 8:1; 13:1; Rev. 1:11). Today in the Lord’s recovery we stand on the ground of oneness taking the city as the jurisdiction of the church, and we stand in oneness with the whole Body of Christ to practice the church life on the local ground