Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Jay

Unfortunately Thyatira is the ... church. their practices are the same in essence... they are full of idolatry. Don't believe me? Let's look at the ... church and all of their idols. These people actually in fact worship... some of the apostles whom they call....

Minister of the Age?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Minister of the Age?

Maybe. But I've never heard anyone pray to Lee. I have seen a great deal of reverence for him. And yes I would agree with others that......if looking from the outside in.....Lee does resemble a cult leader. I can see that, particularly if looking in as someone who has no experience in the local churches. It definitely seems like they're all following Lee. And I guess in a sense they are, however I'd say they are following his ministry more than HIM per se. And I can see why. His ministry is unique and leads you in a direction where you experience Christ. But there have been times where I myself have just read and read his ministry and became dead spiritually because I was too caught up in reading the ministry as opposed to praying, touching my spirit, and pray reading or just reading the word. Similar to John 5:39

On the other hand Paul himself said 'be imitators of me and as I am of Christ' (1 Corinthians 11:1). But then you would say "Is Lee on the same level as Paul." Idk I guess that's up to each person to decipher. But I certainly would never have gained as much Bible clarity as I have from reading Nee and Lee without them. Are they on Paul's level in their personal life? I don't know. I have seen video of Lee where he definitely seemed like he had the spirit of God upon him. But I don't know. I suppose we will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). As far as his ministry is concerned, Lee has spiritual fruit and he has had spiritual increase in the form of conversion and if the local churches are of God then certainly he has much fruit by way of bringing believers into the line of life and the line of meeting correctly.....if the local churches are correct, and if his ministry is correct

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand Paul himself said 'be imitators of me and as I am of Christ' (1 Corinthians 11:1). But then you would say "Is Lee on the same level as Paul." Idk I guess that's up to each person to decipher.

This is a great example of taking a verse out of context to fit into an idea. Paul in the actual context is closing his statements here regarding doing all things to the Glory of God.

Using this verse to support the argument that various fallen men are ranked by according to “levels” is to make the Bible fit your agenda.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zezima

This is a great example of taking a verse out of context to fit into an idea. Paul in the actual context is closing his statements here regarding doing all things to the Glory of God.

Using this verse to support the argument that various fallen men are ranked by according to “levels” is to make the Bible fit your agenda.

Well we can call Paul a very spiritual man can we not? Sure he's just as fallen as us, but is our spiritual pursuit as successful and advanced as his was? I'm just saying Paul wasn't NOTHING or NO ONE per se. Granted he was just a vessel that God showed mercy on, but he also was someone who was very close to God and that means something. He was also a murderer as was king David and Solomon was a lecher who also happened to build God's physical house on earth. Somewhat of a paradox. Sure God isn't a respecter of persons, but God also called Abraham his friend and he said he loved Jacob but hated Esau. Paradoxical things

I'm not suggesting there is any kind of rank in the body though. Not the point I'm trying to make. I don't say that to imply rank or importance. But these men are in some ways role models insofar as their spiritual pursuits and attainments are concerned. Yes they had major sins and major failures, but we also can't say that had no major attainments and major success either. This is where we need some nuance to have a more broad understanding

But I will say that those in the recovery have placed probably way too much reverence and honor on Nee and Lee. To the point where those around Lee would cover up for his major sins. It's probably true that if Lee was a smaller member then his sins wouldn't go unnoticed or be swept under the rug as they have been. In the Bible we all knew David's sins and Solomon's sins and Saul's sins, because the Bible records them. But when it comes to Nee and Lee their sins have been whitewashed to protect the integrity of the recovery. Idk if that's something of the will of God. It seems to me that that's more of a boasting point for the enemy. I think it gives less validity to the recovery as a whole and it wreaks of the works of man and not of God

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

Well we can call Paul a very spiritual man can we not? Sure he's just as fallen as us, but is our spiritual pursuit as successful and advanced as his was? I'm just saying Paul wasn't NOTHING or NO ONE per se. Granted he was just a vessel that God showed mercy on, but he also was someone who was very close to God and that means something. He was also a murderer as was king David and Solomon was a lecher who also happened to build God's physical house on earth. Somewhat of a paradox. Sure God isn't a respecter of persons, but God also called Abraham his friend and he said he loved Jacob but hated Esau. Paradoxical things

I'm not suggesting there is any kind of rank in the body though. Not the point I'm trying to make. I don't say that to imply rank or importance. But these men are in some ways role models insofar as their spiritual pursuits and attainments are concerned. Yes they had major sins and major failures, but we also can't say that had no major attainments and major success either. This is where we need some nuance to have a more broad understanding

But I will say that those in the recovery have placed probably way too much reverence and honor on Nee and Lee. To the point where those around Lee would cover up for his major sins. It's probably true that if Lee was a smaller member then his sins wouldn't go unnoticed or be swept under the rug as they have been. In the Bible we all knew David's sins and Solomon's sins and Saul's sins, because the Bible records them. But when it comes to Nee and Lee their sins have been whitewashed to protect the integrity of the recovery. Idk if that's something of the will of God. It seems to me that that's more of a boasting point for the enemy. I think it gives less validity to the recovery as a whole and it wreaks of the works of man and not of God

You were taking a Bible verse out of context to fit your point. You quoted a verse from 1 Cor. to support your point, but that verse isn’t used by the author to prove the point you’re making.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zezima

You were taking a Bible verse out of context to fit your point. You quoted a verse from 1 Cor. to support your point, but that verse isn’t used by the author to prove the point you’re making.

I have other threads going on and I've written a lot on this website recently. Can you show me where I quoted 1 Cor. to support my point so I can understand what you're talking about right now.....

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

I have other threads going on and I've written a lot on this website recently. Can you show me where I quoted 1 Cor. to support my point so I can understand what you're talking about right now....

Sure thing, here is where you quoted 1 Cor to support your point.

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand Paul himself said 'be imitators of me and as I am of Christ' (1 Corinthians 11:1). But then you would say "Is Lee on the same level as Paul." Idk I guess that's up to each person to decipher

Here Jay, you use 1 Corinthians 11:1 as support to the rational behind following witness lee.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Sure thing, here is where you quoted 1 Cor to support your point.




Here Jay, you use 1 Corinthians 11:1 as support to the rational behind following witness lee.

Here's my full quote without being taken out of context-

On the other hand Paul himself said 'be imitators of me and as I am of Christ' (1 Corinthians 11:1). But then you would say "Is Lee on the same level as Paul." Idk I guess that's up to each person to decipher. But I certainly would never have gained as much Bible clarity as I have from reading Nee and Lee without them. Are they on Paul's level in their personal life? I don't know. I have seen video of Lee where he definitely seemed like he had the spirit of God upon him. But I don't know. I suppose we will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). As far as his ministry is concerned, Lee has spiritual fruit and he has had spiritual increase in the form of conversion and if the local churches are of God then certainly he has much fruit by way of bringing believers into the line of life and the line of meeting correctly.....if the local churches are correct, and if his ministry is correct

Clearly this is a conjecture, or hypothesis, me saying

"Is Lee on the same level as Paul." Idk I guess that's up to each person to decipher

is clearly a "what if" statement. But you've taken that out of context and claimed I am asserting that Lee IS in fact on the same level as Paul. Which is underhanded

If you go back and read our exchanges and what I actually said, you're accusing me of uplifting Lee in a certain way that I'm not necessarily doing. As I explained here, which you apparently ignored in lieu of your taken out of context attack-

I'm not suggesting there is any kind of rank in the body though. Not the point I'm trying to make. I don't say that to imply rank or importance. But these men are in some ways role models insofar as their spiritual pursuits and attainments are concerned. Yes they had major sins and major failures, but we also can't say that had no major attainments and major success either. This is where we need some nuance to have a more broad understanding

So essentially you're taking things I said, distorting what I meant by them, and applying them to your bent that I'm uplifting a false apostle (Lee). When actually I'm just pointing out that like Paul, Lee had major impact on the body of Christ and they both did great works to bring about God's economy. Paul received the revelation, and Lee distilled it, expounded upon it, and presented it to the body in an up to date and understandable way. Does that mean I'm worshiping Lee? No it doesn't. But I can recognize achievement and give credit where it's due

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to twist and distort things I'm saying into your method and mode of slander please

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

Here's my full quote without being taken out of context-




Clearly this is a conjecture, or hypothesis, me saying is clearly a "what if" statement. But you've taken that out of context and claimed I am asserting that Lee IS in fact on the same level as Paul. Which is underhanded

If you go back and read our exchanges and what I actually said, you're accusing me of uplifting Lee in a certain way that I'm not necessarily doing. As I explained here, which you apparently ignored in lieu of your taken out of context attack-

So essentially you're taking things I said, distorting what I meant by them, and applying them to your bent that I'm uplifting a false apostle (Lee). When actually I'm just pointing out that like Paul, Lee had major impact on the body of Christ and they both did great works to bring about God's economy. Paul received the revelation, and Lee distilled it, expounded upon it, and presented it to the body in an up to date and understandable way. Does that mean I'm worshiping Lee? No it doesn't. But I can recognize achievement and give credit where it's due

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to twist and distort things I'm saying into your method and mode of slander please

From my perspective, I understood the addition of that scripture within your statements as support for your statement. It’s not that you’re uplifting lee, rather you’re using the verse to support that “hypothetical” of it being possible to rationalize.

“On the one hand ABC (insert Bible verse), therefore XYZ. “


Perhaps I have misunderstood your conjecture, though I am now curious why you added that verse into your words. Especially in parenthesis like you did.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zezima

From my perspective, I understood the addition of that scripture within your statements as support for your statement. It’s not that you’re uplifting lee, rather you’re using the verse to support that “hypothetical” of it being possible to rationalize. “On the one hand ABC (insert Bible verse), therefore XYZ. “ Perhaps I have misunderstood your conjecture, though I am now curious why you added that verse into your words. Especially in parenthesis like you did.

Your questioning is based on an assumption that Lee is a false apostle. I don't agree with that. Lee has remaining fruit all over the world, and he has left lots of riches to all Christians everywhere. Does that mean he is without sin? No it doesn't. We all know his major faults and his major errors. The real question is does his major errors/sins disqualify his ministry? On that note we could ask is his ministry infallible? I would say no. I think there's mistakes in it as well as contradictions, and some of them are pretty big. We can see from all the testimonies that his views on deputy authority were misused and hurt a lot of people. But does that negate everything else he's said over the course of his lifetime work? I don't know that it does. Clearly the believers in the LC are enjoying it or else they wouldn't be there would they? If his ministry has no good to it then what would be the motivation to follow it?

I suppose it's up to the individual to decide what parts of his entire ministry are faulty. Many are throwing him totally away for various reasons. Ok, that's the decision of the individual. But where there's a problem if the attacks start to veer into that territory of tearing down his entire work. Which, we would have to ask ourselves what exactly is the motive behind that and who is instigating it? If it's of God then it would imply he is a false apostle, if it's of satan then it would imply that satan has a lot to gain by tearing down Lee's ministry. It makes you think doesn't it. Who's vehicle are we riding in? And if Lee is of no importance then why are you all here in the first place? It's similar to atheists who claim there is no God but spend a great deal of time arguing against his existence. If you believe there is no God why are you wasting so much time on a non-existing entity? Likewise if you believe Lee is false why spend so much time railing against him?

If to warn others so they don't get hurt then ok, but if you're trying to tear down his ministry to accomplish that are you absolutely sure it does nothing but hurt people? How do you know it doesn't help people? If there are local churches all over the world then surely there has to be some benefit to their ministry. Sure there's a lot to criticize, but have you considered looking at things to praise about it? Or are you doing what atheists do and only read the Bible to find things to criticize? And then ignore all the other good aspects about the Bible

I don't agree with uplifting people to a status above reproach and accountability. But I also like to give credit where it's due. I'm sure many criticized Paul because Paul was literally a murderer. But God chose him nonetheless. Now you'll say I'm comparing Lee to Paul again, actually Lee wasn't half as bad as Paul. I doubt Lee ever murdered anyone. Think about it for a second....

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Jay

Your questioning is based on an assumption that Lee is a false apostle. I don't agree with that. Lee has remaining fruit all over the world, and he has left lots of riches to all Christians everywhere.....

Witness Lee was a false apostle.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...hlight=Witness

[aron]

I cannot overstate how much I appreciate Jay coming on this forum and posting. For I'm quite sure that he has the courage to say what many are quietly thinking. So his questions shouldn't be taken lightly, or dismissed. And his considerations are worth our considerations.

Originally Posted by Jay

The real question is does his major errors/sins disqualify his ministry?

The answer to that question is found categorically in the pages of the NT.

1 Timothy 3... an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

Witness Lee, by failing to manage his household, fails the clear NT directive as a deacon or overseer. Doesn't matter if you pen a best-seller or move your audience to tears, or found a mega-church; if you are a drunkard or a brawler or have reprobate family, you shouldn't lead the church.

Now, you can be imperfect, occasionally slip up and become a drunkard or brawler or have unruly children and still be a church MEMBER, but you shouldn't be a church LEADER. In this, Paul is clear, and we should be as well.

Originally Posted by Jay

I don't agree with uplifting people to a status above reproach and accountability. But I also like to give credit where it's due. I'm sure many criticized Paul because Paul was literally a murderer. But God chose him nonetheless. Now you'll say I'm comparing Lee to Paul again, actually Lee wasn't half as bad as Paul. I doubt Lee ever murdered anyone. Think about it for a second....

The two salient differences between Paul and Witness Lee here, are that Paul murdered people before becoming a servant of the Lord and a herald of the gospel, and Witness Lee bilked people out of money for his family after he became church leader; and related, that Paul repented after he murdered others, and amended his ways, and Witness Lee never repented or changed is ways, after he got exposed with his hand in the till. "It's my personal business" he said of the Timothy Lee fiasco. "Sail On!!" was the watchword after the Philip Lee fiasco.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Jay

Your questioning is based on an assumption that Lee is a false apostle...

No, my questioning is based on you using 1 Corinthians. Why did you include that in your original statement if it wasn’t for support? I’m trying understand the purpose of its inclusion so that I can understand what you’re trying to communicate.

Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

The real question is does his major errors/sins disqualify his ministry? On that note we could ask is his ministry infallible? I would say no. I think there's mistakes in it as well as contradictions, and some of them are pretty big. We can see from all the testimonies that his views on deputy authority were misused and hurt a lot of people. But does that negate everything else he's said over the course of his lifetime work? I don't know that it does.

I’m just not following your logic here Jay.

I spent many, far too many, hours agonizing over hypocritical points like this. I had to throw out all the righteous standards in scripture in order to remain connected to LSM. In order to agree with your views here, I have to accept the existence of a double standard. One standard for WL, and another standard for every other minister. For decades I heard WL condemning other ministers for their sins, and then I discover that he was guilty of the same. Is that fair? I don’t think so.

The Recovery has one justice scale for outsiders, and another for its own leaders. This is a corrupt balance of justice, which God hates. “Dishonest scales are detestable to the LORD, but He delights in just scales.” (Proverbs 11.1) Does not the Bible also say, “Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent— both are detestable to the LORD.“ (Proverbs 17.15)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

I don't agree with uplifting people to a status above reproach and accountability. But I also like to give credit where it's due. I'm sure many criticized Paul because Paul was literally a murderer. But God chose him nonetheless. Now you'll say I'm comparing Lee to Paul again, actually Lee wasn't half as bad as Paul. I doubt Lee ever murdered anyone. Think about it for a second....

I have. I thought about this many times. I have personally seen WL destroy the reputations of many men, all of them dear brothers in Christ and servants of the Lord. WL and his Blendeds have fabricated stories, ascribed evil motives, made false character accusations, slandered, libeled, and bore false witness against them in clear violation of the 9th Commandment. Why did they do this? To protect their own reputations and coverup their own sins.

I know many brothers in Christ, upright men of God, who would consider the destruction of their own reputations a far worse crime than actually being killed. The Lord said as much on the Sermon on the Mount.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Jay

We all know his major faults and his major errors.

The real question is does his major errors/sins disqualify his ministry? On that note we could ask is his ministry infallible? I would say no. I think there's mistakes in it as well as contradictions, and some of them are pretty big. We can see from all the testimonies that his views on deputy authority were misused and hurt a lot of people. But does that negate everything else he's said over the course of his lifetime work? I don't know that it does. Clearly the believers in the LC are enjoying it or else they wouldn't be there would they? If his ministry has no good to it then what would be the motivation to follow it?

Jay, just a couple of my takeaways from what you had posted.

1. Regarding your blanket assertion that Witness Lee's major faults and errors are common knowledge - in reality, I have found that the depth of Lee's wickedness is still coming to light in 2024. One example is the previously unheard of June 4, 1991 Hong Kong Declaration!

2. You asked why people would stay in the LCs and continue to follow Lee's ministry. In the past I used to think this was mainly due to an addiction. However, after reading a letter from a former prominent LC leader, I'm convinced that "the super glue" ingredients are much more sinister.

In August of 2001, in a letter to Steve Isitt, brother Albert Zehr made the following excellent observations regarding the Lord's Recovery Movement:

"In their hearts these dear ones have elevated the teachings of Witness Lee and the doctrines of the recovery to be commensurate with the WORD. They perceive these to be God's "present day speaking." Unconsciously, this makes them infallible and unquestionable. They become part of one's very faith and foundation. This stance requires total subjective loyalty and acceptance and makes an objective review impossible if not blasphemous. The longer one is in this mode the more of the lifetime that has been built on it the more inconceivable it becomes that it might be a deception. Everything else is measured by this "vision" and nothing can measure it."

Think about it Jay!

P.S.