What is God's Economy?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jay

How are you not attacking though? You're just bashing. Which is whatever I guess. If you've been hurt it's understandable. But at least have some solid points in your attacks. Some of the stuff you all say I agree with, but if I don't agree then you just bash me. That's pretty weak honestly. You can't be objective and classy? You can't be mature? It's almost like you're a hate group with no other goal but to hate, even if what you're saying isn't viable. At least make sense. If it makes sense to you then fine, but if I disagree with it objectively then you attack me. That's silliness. Have you lost all your rationality?

I'm not aware of a post where I, Trapped, have bashed you, Jay. Can you give me an example? If so, I am happy to apologize. Generally I try to make it a point to deal with the teachings and arguments, rather than bash people, but I might have gone too far somewhere. Let me know.

However, if you mean to say that you disagreed with ACuriousFellow's link/document about calling on the Lord, and that you consider my response to you a bashing, what part of it is bashing? I'm genuinely confused by your response where you seem to disregard what it is the Bible clearly says, and so I asked if that is really what you are doing. And I'm genuinely confused by your lifting your experience over the Bible even when it contradicts the Bible. I'm genuinely confused that you consider hearing what the Bible teaches "an attack". As a Christian, who by definition is one who is supposed to hold to the Word of God, if the Word of God gets disregarded, what's the point?

I did ask you several clarifying questions, though, which you did not respond to in favor of saying what you said above. My questions were serious ones, and concerned ones, not bashing ones. If you want to answer those questions and explain further what you meant, I'm listening.

Trapped

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm not aware of a post where I, Trapped, have bashed you, Jay. Can you give me an example? If so, I am happy to apologize. Generally I try to make it a point to deal with the teachings and arguments, rather than bash people, but I might have gone too far somewhere. Let me know.

However, if you mean to say that you disagreed with ACuriousFellow's link/document about calling on the Lord, and that you consider my response to you a bashing, what part of it is bashing? I'm genuinely confused by your response where you seem to disregard what it is the Bible clearly says, and so I asked if that is really what you are doing. And I'm genuinely confused by your lifting your experience over the Bible even when it contradicts the Bible. I'm genuinely confused that you consider hearing what the Bible teaches "an attack". As a Christian, who by definition is one who is supposed to hold to the Word of God, if the Word of God gets disregarded, what's the point?

I did ask you several clarifying questions, though, which you did not respond to in favor of saying what you said above. My questions were serious ones, and concerned ones, not bashing ones. If you want to answer those questions and explain further what you meant, I'm listening.

Trapped

Also it's funny to note that you guys are contradicting yourselves. Earlier someone was saying that the LC is not the only place where they practice calling on the Lord. But now you're claiming that calling on the Lord is a cult practice lol. So are you saying that the LC is not the only "cult" to call on the Lord? That anyone who calls on the Lord is practicing cult behavior?

But then you'll say "oh no it's HOWWWW they do it." Dude you're just bashing because you hate the LC. It's fine, but it would be better if you just admitted it instead of going around in circles contradicting yourselves. I'd bet that if another church that wasn't the LC chanted "ohhhh Lorrrdd Jessssuusss" you would have no issue with it because you're selectively outraged aren't you lol

I'm sure you think that I'm bashing you right now huh? lol, now YOU'RE the victims aren't you? lol. Pretty soon that's what it'll turn into. You accuse others of the very behavior you exhibit. I love it dude, good stuff. Just move the goalposts whenever it benefits you and your angle

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

In the book of Acts when Paul was persecuting the Christians, he identified them by hearing their calling on the Lord in their houses. How would he be able to do that if they weren't calling over and over? Doesn't seem logical

At any rate, you can dissect and break it down any way you like, it doesn't and won't ever erase millions of people's experience practicing it. Sorry, we tried it, we liked it, we practice it. You're certainly welcome to attack and cry about it though.....

Yes. I could also very clearly identify Elijah calling on the Lord, yet he did not make a mantra/chant out of it. If Paul walked by a house where the saints were praising and heard the name of Jesus invoked even once, that is all he needed to know that every word of praise or petition that came before and afterwards was the saints calling out to God's Anointed, Jesus. There is no reason to believe that they had to be repeatedly saying his name over and over and over again. That is just more assumption and eisegesis from Witness Lee.

As for "millions of people's experience practicing it," I do not intend to "erase" such experiences, but you must also be mindful that millions of Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, and Hindus have experiences as well. There may even be real spiritual forces that they are interacting with, but this does not mean that I will subscribe to, support, or approve their theology or practices. These "experiences" do not mean that they are approved by God. Be careful with such an argument, Jay.

Also it's funny to note that you guys are contradicting yourselves. Earlier someone was saying that the LC is not the only place where they practice calling on the Lord. But now you're claiming that calling on the Lord is a cult practice lol. So are you saying that the LC is not the only "cult" to call on the Lord? That anyone who calls on the Lord is practicing cult behavior?

Once again, you're putting words in our mouths. It's a shame that you continue to engage in this kind of behavior, Jay. Let's point out the words you put in my mouth again (along with many others since you were referring to several).

1) "The LC is not the only place where people call on the Lord." This is a false claim. I never said that the LC is not the only place. I said that other places call on the Lord. This is an important distinction because I had not yet determined whether or not the LC is calling on the Lord. If I had carelessly used these words, I would be implying that there are other places that call on the Lord the way that the LC believe you should call on the Lord, but that was not my focus. I was not defending the other denominations by saying "they call on the Lord like the LC does." I was defending them by claiming "they call on the Lord."

2) "Now you're claiming that calling on the Lord is a cult practice." This is a false claim. I never said that calling on the Lord is a cult practice. I made the argument that the LCs' definition of "calling" is incorrect and that the LCs' very specific, particular, and scripturally unsupported practice of "calling" is cult-like. Never did I claim that anyone who invokes the name of the Lord is acting like a cult. There are many who call on the name of the Lord in the very same way that Elijah, Jesus, the apostles, and the other saints did without making the Lord's name into a chant/mantra to stir themselves up into a spiritual fervor. These people are not acting like a cult, nor have I ever claimed such ones do.

But then you'll say "oh no it's HOWWWW they do it." Dude you're just bashing because you hate the LC. It's fine, but it would be better if you just admitted it instead of going around in circles contradicting yourselves. I'd bet that if another church that wasn't the LC chanted "ohhhh Lorrrdd Jessssuusss" you would have no issue with it because you're selectively outraged aren't you lol.

It's not a contradiction because there is a clear distinction between what Witness Lee calls "calling" and what the bible clearly portrays as "calling." They are two different things. To claim that Witness Lee "calling on Lord" is cult-like while some others "calling on the Lord" is not does not make for a contradictory statement because they are two very different practices. One of them, Witness Lee's, is not scripturally sound, and the other, what many other denominations already practice and have been practicing for hundreds of years, is more scripturally sound.

I'm sure you think that I'm bashing you right now huh? lol, now YOU'RE the victims aren't you? lol. Pretty soon that's what it'll turn into. You accuse others of the very behavior you exhibit. I love it dude, good stuff. Just move the goalposts whenever it benefits you and your angle

It would be an insult to the struggles of the many saints in The Lord's Recovery who are being pressured and oppressed and abused by their shepherds to claim that I am your victim right now. It would be giving you altogether too much credit to say that you have such power over me right now.

Jay, you have succeeded in providing enough scriptural support to claim that "calling on the Lord" is a thing. You have even provided ample scriptural support to argue that it is crucial. Further still, you have provided scriptural support to claim that it is something that should ideally be audible. I'm certain that just about everyone here was already convinced of these things before you came along.

However, you have utterly failed in providing explicit or even implicit scriptural support for "calling" having to look like a chant-like mantra that we do for hours on end, much less that failing to do so means that you do not call on the Lord at all. You are once again prescribing something that the bible does not prescribe, and unlike the matter of church naming, the bible does not even de-scribe such calling.

This is what you base your judgement on, Jay? This is what you critique the other denominations besides your own for? An unscriptural assumption made by Witness Lee on a whim? You're going to judge the other denominations and claim that they NEVER call on the Lord simply because they don't make a chant/mantra out of his name like you do? You're simply going to disregard all the hymns of praise they sing to the Lord? All the petitions they make in his name out loud? All the blessings they bestow upon each other in his name? The thanks that they give to their Lord? This is not the righteous judgement that the Lord calls us to make. This is a wicked, foolish, and prideful judgement that is based on the desires of men rather than of God. Do not let yourself fall into such things, Jay.

I would not say you are bashing. You have provided no solid scriptural support for your very particular doctrine of calling as a mantra/chant, and you clearly remain unable to do so. Now you've veered away from any attempt to properly defend your position, though really I would say you did not make a great effort to begin with. Not with this particular doctrine. Now you are thrashing, which is understandable. You've reached a point that many of us had to reach in the past. You are experiencing the slow and painful realization that LC doctrine is nowhere near as solid and sound as you once believed. This is a supremely painful and frustrating experience, and this is largely due to the fact that in the LCs no one ever tries to challenge their doctrines. You don't get the kind of crucial "iron sharpens iron" experience in which you learn to really contend for the faith through the use of scriptural analysis, interpretation, and application. These kinds of things are often a bit of a culture shock for those who have been in The Lord's Recovery for an extended period of time.

[ACuriousFellow]

Jay, perhaps it would be good for you take a break and reflect on the discussions you've had here. You're making quite an effort to engage in multiple doctrinal debates at once, and this with multiple people, too. It's clear that you feel outnumbered here, and your exasperation shows.

Perhaps it would be best to create a thread where only you and one other person engage in a particular debate and the rest of us watch. I am uncertain if the admins would allow/enforce such a thread, but I'll put the idea out there anyways. You could also consider private messaging so as not to feel so overwhelmed by this many opposing voices coming at you all at once. It would also be beneficial to spend some time on your own praying over the scriptures and really reading and studying them. Consider the context: culture, history, setting, etc., and use this to guide your understanding and interpretation of the text and develop your arguments.

After this, you could return and provide more solid scriptural arguments to defend your positions. Most of the arguments I've presented here are the result of extensive prayer and study that I did after leaving The Lord's Recovery.

I suppose the choice is yours in the end. I can't really stop you if you wish to keep engaging like this, and I will keep answering your false or misguided claims along with everyone else here. There are still quite a few things that you claim that other denominations "NEVER" do that deserve a proper response, but I am unsure if you are really ready to hear them.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Jay, perhaps it would be good for you take a break and reflect on the discussions you've had here. You're making quite an effort to engage in multiple doctrinal debates at once, and this with multiple people, too. It's clear that you feel outnumbered here, and your exasperation shows......You could also consider private messaging so as not to feel so overwhelmed by this many opposing voices coming at you all at once.

Excellent advise by our friend ACuriousFellow! Things are getting a little too repetitive and unnecessarily argumentative, and as a result have become hard for our readers to follow. As far as I can tell, everyone here is posting in good faith. And while healthy confrontational dialogue is part and parcel of an open forum like this, I think it might be a good idea for everyone to slow down just a bit. Let's keep our posts as short and compact as possible. Same with our friend Jay's retorts.

Fair enough?
-

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent advise by our friend ACuriousFellow! Things are getting a little too repetitive and unnecessarily argumentative, and as a result have become hard for our readers to follow. As far as I can tell, everyone here is posting in good faith. And while healthy confrontational dialogue is part and parcel of an open forum like this, I think it might be a good idea for everyone to slow down just a bit. Let's keep our posts as short and compact as possible. Same with our friend Jay's retorts.

Fair enough?
-

How crafty of you, UH. I do not share some of your particular concerns. Much of what is being said here needs to be said and read, both for the sake of those who remain in The Lord's Recovery and those who have left.

But at the end of the day this is your house, is it not? You may make it as neat and tidy as you please. Do give us a heads up if you choose to clean house once more. I'm sure many here would appreciate the courtesy.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jay

Also it's funny to note that you guys are contradicting yourselves. Earlier someone was saying that the LC is not the only place where they practice calling on the Lord. But now you're claiming that calling on the Lord is a cult practice lol. So are you saying that the LC is not the only "cult" to call on the Lord? That anyone who calls on the Lord is practicing cult behavior?


But then you'll say "oh no it's HOWWWW they do it." Dude you're just bashing because you hate the LC.

You are right, the sticking point is how the LC does it. Exactly. And the reason it's a sticking point is not because we love bashing the LC. The reason it's a sticking point is because the Bible condemns how the LC does it. The chanting, vain repetitions is condemned by the Word of God.

The Word of God condemns how the LC does it. That's why people have a problem.

Originally Posted by Jay

It's fine, but it would be better if you just admitted it instead of going around in circles contradicting yourselves. I'd bet that if another church that wasn't the LC chanted "ohhhh Lorrrdd Jessssuusss" you would have no issue with it because you're selectively outraged aren't you lol

If another church that wasn't the LC chanted, I would also have a problem with it. Because it's the chanting/repetition part that's the problem, not the fact that it's the LC that does it that is the problem.

Originally Posted by Jay

I'm sure you think that I'm bashing you right now huh? lol, now YOU'RE the victims aren't you? lol. Pretty soon that's what it'll turn into. You accuse others of the very behavior you exhibit. I love it dude, good stuff. Just move the goalposts whenever it benefits you and your angle

No, I don't think you are bashing me. No, I don't think I'm the victim.

I actually think you are the victim. You are the victim of the deception in the local church. Everyone here has been through the same thing and we are full of understanding and empathy for you.

Your reactions are very normal and very expected, honestly. What you're experiencing is something called cognitive dissonance. You want to hold to and defend this teaching/practice of Witness Lee's, but you also want to be a Christian who follows the Bible. When the two contradict, you are left with an impossible situation - you have to choose what the Bible teaches or what Witness Lee teaches. And making the choice means a major shift in what you believe.

It's extremely difficult, Jay. But this is the kind of thing mature Christians have to do. Our muscles for this kind of stuff are left largely unused in the local church. I went through a period of extreme turmoil as I had to face this in teaching after teaching of Witness Lee's. I would encourage you, as a fellow believer in Christ, to choose what the Bible teaches and avoid what the Bible condemns.

Trapped