Separation and/or Exclusion - God´s way of dealing with unrighteousness

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In John 8, Jesus performs a separation among Jewish believers. John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.” Jesus encourages the Jewish believers to continue abiding in His word, similar to His message in John 15:1-18. However, just two verses later, their belief begins to waver, and they start to question His teachings.

No neccesarily. It was a complex audience, composed of different kinds of people. When the text says "they answered", we don´t really know exactly who or how many answered. It is better to look at the context: Jesus is talking openly in the temple courts to many people. For example, they are described as "people", Jews, Pharisees, many that believed in Him, those who were trying to kill Him, those who did not understand Him, those unable to accept His message, sons of the devil, those who do not believe Him, those who do not belong to God, those who dishonor Him, those who picked up stones to throw at Him.

According to context, it makes no sense that some, those who believed in Him would also be those who did not believe Him. Would those that believed in Him also be those who were trying to kill Him? Makes no sense. There are different kinds of reactions based on different kinds of conditions, diffent kinds of people. It does not follow that those that beleived in Him were now suddenly those that are waivering or those who had been wanting to kill Him. So most likely some believed, some just listened, some opposed Him, some had been planning to kill Him, etc. Generally speaking, it was the Pharisees who were jealous out of their minds, opposing, asking testing questions and those who wanted to kill Him, not all the people.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No neccesarily. It was a complex audience, composed of different kinds of people.

In the beginning of John 8 it may have been a complex audience but by verse 30, Jesus' focus narrows instead of broadening.

John 8:30-31
As he was saying these things, many believed in him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him

Notice the shift to the audience to the Jews who had believed in Him. After this verse there is no indication that the audience changes.

John 8:32-33
“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

The they in verse 32 clearly refers to the audience in verse 31 the Jews who had believed him. To suggest otherwise would be committing eisegesis. The conversation between Jesus and the Jews who believed in him continues in such a manner until Jesus declares they are of their father the devil in verse 44.

This is nothing out of the ordinary as there are accounts of people who had superficial belief in Jesus and later fell away.

John 2:23-25
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Just like in John 8, Jesus did not trust himself to people who believed in his name. He knew what was in each person, meaning he knew their hearts reflected their father the devil and they were not truly born again believers just like in John 8.

This also reminds me of the infamous verse which foreshadows the great apostasy during the end times of self professed believers who will take the mark of the beast to save their own life:

John 6:66
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

A true disciple will continue walking with Jesus. If someone decides to no longer follow Jesus, they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Someone who is not a sheep of Jesus does not belong to him and will not inherit eternal life.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In the beginning of John 8 it may have been a complex audience but by verse 30, Jesus' focus narrows instead of broadening.
John 8:30-31
As he was saying these things, many believed in him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him
Notice the shift to the audience to the Jews who had believed in Him. After this verse there is no indication that the audience changes.

There is no way you can confirm who is responding. That´s why I´m saying to look at the context of what is going on. Some were desiring to kill Him. That was a desire they already had from some point in the past. It makes no sense that somebody desiring to kill Him would suddenly now believe in Him and then continue to desire to kill Him. Regardless, I don´t see much benefit in trying to figure out these kind of details in these verses. If your point is that some believed and then changed their mind, well there are many clear descriptions of exactly that in other passages.

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When a person believes in the Son of God, in the message of the gospel, all the redemptive work of Christ on the cross is applied to the new believer. He is justified out of faith in the blood of the Lamb and he is also born again by the Spirit. That cannot be undone or lost, it is a positional fact. That position cannot be affected even if that same person later denies the Lord, whether five minutes later, five days, five weeks, five months, five years or fifty. In other words he is saved by grace through faith and cannot lose his salvation. What can change is the condition of the believer, for better or worse, which will affect his relationship with the Lord and his inheritance in the coming age. That can be gained or lost.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

When a person believes in the Son of God, in the message of the gospel, all the redemptive work of Christ on the cross is applied to the new believer. He is justified out of faith in the blood of the Lamb and he is also born again by the Spirit. That cannot be undone or lost, it is a positional fact. That position cannot be affected even if that same person later denies the Lord, whether five minutes later, five days, five weeks, five months, five years or fifty. In other words he is saved by grace through faith and cannot lose his salvation. What can change is the condition of the believer, for better or worse, which will affect his relationship with the Lord and his inheritance in the coming age. That can be gained or lost.

The disciples who were prevented from entering the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were surprised when they were shut out of heaven and perhaps they thought they were positionally justified.

Matthew 7:23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew (ginóskó) you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In John 10:14 Jesus says "I am the good shepherd. I know (ginōskō) my own and my own know (ginōskō) me". Hence in order to belong to Jesus, he has to know you intimately (ginōskō). That Jesus told those who called him Lord, Lord "I never knew you" means the false believers never belonged to him hence they were deceived into thinking they had true faith. Jesus called them workers of "lawlessness" so they were not obedient. Disobedience is a sign of a false believer. James says that even the demons believe but they are disobedient so saving faith goes beyond mere intellectual agreement.

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Romans 2:6-8
God 'will repay each person according to what they have done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

Hebrews 10:26-27
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The disciples who were prevented from entering the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were surprised when they were shut out of heaven and perhaps they thought they were positionally justified.

"Many will say to Me on that day...." What day is that? Where are they? When is that taking place?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"Many will say to Me on that day...." What day is that? Where are they? When is that taking place?

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context of "on that day" in Matthew 7:22 is Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" so it refers to the last day of judgment where the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

You probably know many people in real life who profess to be Christians but live like ungodly men or women. God doesn't care how we label ourselves but what is actually in our heart (Romans 2:28-29).

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Jesus says the Father will judge those who reject him at the last day. God will also use the words that Jesus spoke to judge us so we can't rely on the writings of Govett, Panton, Lang, Lee or Nee on doctrines like positional justification to defend ourselves. Hence why I am trying to focus on scripture and not doctrinal statements. Someone who rejects Jesus and his words is not saved according to

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

so Jesus himself also uses the term "the last day" to refer to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the millennium kingdom. It is perhaps labeled as "the last day" to refer to the "last day" of the old creation before the new heavens and new earth.

In Matthew 7:21-23 the judgment sounds final "I never knew you, depart from me". There is no indication that Jesus is giving them a second chance. This is consistent with the last day of judgment. If they were his sheep, Jesus would have known them at some point. Only sheep who belong to Jesus are saved.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These false disciples besides not being sheep were likely not even goats. The context of this warning are false prophets who disguise themselves as wolves in sheep's clothing earlier in verses 15-20 who are ravenous on the inside. Not only are they are not born again but as wolves, they are like Satan who is a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8-10).

Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context of "on that day" in Matthew 7:22 is Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" so it refers to the last day of judgment where the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

The "Day of Judgment" begins with the pre-millennium Bema Judgment Seat of Christ and ends on the same thousand year long "Day" with the Great White Throne judgment. Both judgments have fire. (I Cor 3.15) When these "workers of lawlessness" will be judged is determined by whether their sins have been forgiven and they have received the gift of eternal life. Admittedly there are most probably "workers of lawlessness" in both camps.

The fiery lake of the Great White Throne, prepared for the devil and His angels, is called the "Second Death." (Rev 20.14; 21.8) Rev 2.11, however, provides a great reward for those faithful believers in Smyrna who were suffering grievous persecution while on earth. They will NOT be touched by the fire of the "Second Death." This verse strongly informs us that some believers, however, WILL be touched by the "second death."

bearbear, you have a mindset that prevents you from understanding anything Raptor and I have written. I wish you could read what I call the "Kingdom Authors," ones like Govett, Land, Panton, et. al. Just because Nee/Lee taught from some of these same authors does not make their teachings wrong in this regard.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Matthew 7:21-23
The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

Did you know that many verses refer to "that day" as the second coming of the Lord and the Judgment Seat of Christ?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There is no way you can confirm who is responding. That´s why I´m saying to look at the context of what is going on. Some were desiring to kill Him. That was a desire they already had from some point in the past. It makes no sense that somebody desiring to kill Him would suddenly now believe in Him and then continue to desire to kill Him. Regardless, I don´t see much benefit in trying to figure out these kind of details in these verses. If your point is that some believed and then changed their mind, well there are many clear descriptions of exactly that in other passages.

Other commentaries on John 8:33 found on https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/8-33.htm share a more literal reading of the passage and assign Jesus' message to the unbelieving Jews. There is other commentary that supports your view but I think it's reading between the lines. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on this point and moving on.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(33) They answered him—i.e., the Jews who had believed in Him (John 8:31). There is no indication that this answer was made by others standing near, nor would this supposition have been made but for the difficulty of applying some of the words which follow (John 8:40; John 8:44) to those who had ever professedly been believers; but the explanation is to be found in our Lord’s own warning words in John 8:31. He has tested their faith, and they fail in the first steps of discipleship.

Meyer's NT Commentary
John himself has precluded us from supposing any other to be intended, by expressly referring (John 8:31) to those Jews among the πολλοί (John 8:30) who had believed, and emphatically marking them as the persons who conduct the following conversation. To them the last word of Jesus proved at once a stone of stumbling. Hence we must not suppose that Jews are referred to who had remained unbelieving and hostile (as do Augustine, Calvin, Lampe, Kuinoel, De Wette, Tholuck, Lücke, Maier, Hengstenberg), and different from those who were mentioned in John 8:31 (ἀπεκρ. they, indef.); nor do the words ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτ. in John 8:37 necessitate this supposition, inasmuch as those πεπιστευκότες might have at once veered round and returned again to the ranks of the opposition, owing to the offence given to their national pride by the words in John 8:32. Accordingly, there is no warrant for saying with Luthardt that the reply came primarily from opponents, but that some of those who believed also chimed in from want of understanding. The text speaks exclusively of πεπιστευκότες.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
33. They answered him Or, unto Him, according to the best MSS. ‘They’ must mean ‘the Jews who had believed Him’ (John 8:31): it is quite arbitrary to suppose any one else. The severe words which follow (John 8:44) are addressed to them, for turning back, after their momentary belief, as well as to those who had never believed at all.

Expositor's Greek Testament
John 8:33. But this announcement, instead of seeming to the Jews the culmination of all bliss, provokes even in the πεπιστευκότες (John 8:31) a blind, carping criticism: Σπέρμα … γενήσεσθε; we are the seed of Abraham, called by God to rule all peoples, and to none have we ever been slaves. “The episodes of Egyptian, Babylonian, Syrian, and Roman conquests were treated as mere transitory accidents, not touching the real life of the people, who had never accepted the dominion of their conquerors of coalesced with them,” Westcott. Sayings such as “All Israel are the children of kings” were current among the people. How then could emancipation be spoken of as yet to be given them?

[bearbear]

Positional justification may hold for the true believer but believers who fall away from the faith do not belong to Jesus and hence are revealed to be false believers who are not saved.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Here John makes it clear that those who fall away never belonged to the family of God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
"But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls."

Here the writer of Hebrews says those who shrink back from the faith are "destroyed". Someone who is suffering a temporary punishment during the millennial kingdom would instead be "disciplined" not "destroyed". And there would be no need to preserve their souls since they are already saved. This is a clear contradiction to the millennial exclusion doctrine.

Galatians 5:7
You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 4:11
I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul says of the Galatians believers who at one point held to the true gospel and were running well that they were severed from Christ and fallen from grace. It is by grace that we are saved so Paul is basically warning them of damnation and he was afraid he had labored in vain, meaning it would have made no difference whether he ministered to them or not because by adding circumcision to the gospel they were as good as unbelievers.

1 Cor 15:2 (NIV)
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Paul warns his audience of holding firmly to the gospel because their faith will be in vain if they stop believing. Their destiny would be the same as if they had never believed at all.