Ephesians 5:22-24

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Of course we were taught that God was going to honor and bless all those hours in the meetings. "Take care of the meetings and God will take care of your marriage and family" was the general theme.

UntoHim, take that quote in conjunction with Ephesians 5:23 (with the husband being the head of the wife) being taken literally was a dysfunctional receipe.

Meaning the husband would assert himself as the head in all things. In opinions, in decisions, where to live, how to raise children, etc. A wife may want family time, have a husband to spend time with in the evenings, but if making the meetings becomes a legal matter, and if the brother really believes Take care of the meetings and God will take care of your marriage and family, what is he going to say when the wife requests a divorce?

I'm not being hypothetical here. This happened to a fmily friend of many years. His realization was he was too religious.
Practically if a husband does assert himself in all things, what is the wife reduced to? Her opinions do not matter. Her feelings do not matter. For all intent and purposes with this mindset, the wife has been reduced to keeping house and bearing children.

In closing I'd like to emphasize what UntoHim has posted.
We can’t change the past, what’s done is done, but we can warn other young men that they need to take care of their marriage and family FIRST. The wife comes FIRST before the church, the children come FIRST before the church. If your wife is not feeling well and you have small children STAY HOME and help your wife out.

[TLFisher]

For those brothers who expect their wives submit absolutely to them with the husbands as the head based on Ephesians 5:22, are these brothers just as insistent towards 1 Corinthains 14:34-35.
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is there a double standard at work? I think so because there are brothers who expect their wives to submit to them as the head, but in the meetings they'll encourage their wives to prophesy. What I'm saying here is not about right or wrong, but an inconsistency in practices.

I italicized absolutely because I believe in many marriages, the husband in loving his wife, respects her opinion and feelings. The wife with her opinions and feelings will ultimately respect her husbands opinion even if it's not the same as hers. In such marriages there is not an absolute submission.
The concept I have in absolute submission could be interpreted as Lording over. Sisters such as the one I'm married to don't want to feel to be lorded over. Some I know who submit absolutely outwardly, they'll go to their friends and cry. In their concept to not be absolutely submissive is to be rebellious.

[John]

Originally Posted by Terry

UntoHim, take that quote in conjunction with Ephesians 5:23 (with the husband being the head of the wife) being taken literally was a dysfunctional receipe.
Meaning the husband would assert himself as the head in all things.

Witness Lee and the elders gave us brothers some very bad models of behavior toward our Christian sisters (which includes our wives). Many of us are probably still trying to overcome bad habits that we picked up in the Local Church related to women; and, probably, many still do not even realize that our bad habits and attitudes are based likely on wrong interpretations of the Scripture.

Another bad habit that Witness Lee and the leaders taught us was to depend on Mr. Lee for all of our understanding of the Bible. After leaving that place, at some point in time, I began to investigate Bible passages for myself as well as fellowship with others about their understandings of Bible passages.

In what follows, I will provide my view of the meaning of the verses that Terry asks about in post #1, as well as the surrounding verses for context. Another bad habit that Witness Lee taught us was to focus on particular verses without regard for the context. After leaving the Local Church, there were certain verses that I could quote by rote but had little idea of the context in which they occurred.

It is wonderful what the Lord can show us when we simply read the Bible without Living Stream Ministry glasses on and without traditional interpretations controlling us. Let me add here that I am simply giving my understanding of these verses; I am not stating that I have it “right” or all figured out.

So, on to John’s Bible study of the second half of Ephesians 5:


Let’s get literal

My first step in Bible study is often to read the verses in question in the Concordant Literal New Testament, since it is very close to being a literal translation but still readable in English. In this case, Terry’s verses from post #1 read this way:

Let the wives be subject to their own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the ecclesia, and He is the Saviour of the body. Nevertheless, as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives also to their husbands in everything. (22–24, CLNT)

Note that this literal version begins with “Let.” In others words, the demeanor that the wife is to appropriate is not contingent upon the husband asserting himself, as Terry mentioned in the post I quoted from him. It is something that the husband lets the wife do of her own free will. This is extremely important.


Be a g[r]eek

My point about the lack of emphasis on the imperative to the wives is clearer when looking at a Greek interlinear version, which is a word-for-word translation from Greek to English. To show you what I’m talking about, I’ll include verse 21 with verse 22 from the Scripture 4 All website:

being under-set to one another in fear of God the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

As you can see when comparing S4A with CLNT, even the word “let” and the decision to begin a new sentence with it by the CLNT translators is not a part of the original Greek text (at least not in the manuscripts that the S4A folks were using). The use of “Let” by the CLNT translators was their way of softening what the New King James translators had made into an emphatic, bold, direct command to the wives, which it really was not:

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (NKJV)

You can see in the preceding quotation that the NKJV boys put in a period after the word God and began a new sentence with a direct command to the wives, calling them out to submit to their husbands. Not only that, they even began a new paragraph to the wives with the effect of divorcing the wives’ voluntary attitude of submission from the preceding verse that tells us that we all are to be in submission (doesn’t seem to be much “new” here in the NKJV).


Words, words, words

As I look at Bible verses, I also look for words that may have different meanings than what I might normally expect. In this case, the big word to investigate is “submit.” We’ve already seen that it can be translated “under-set”; but, what did it mean historically in Paul’s day?

This word was a Greek military term meaning “to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader”. In non-military use, it was “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”. (www.blueletterbible.org)

So, guys, here’s another thing to contemplate: If you think that you are in a military-like marriage, a la Witness Lee’s Local Church marines, then maybe you can go with the military use of the word, issue orders to your wife, and expect her to obey your orders or suffer the consequences. No, no, no—I hope you don’t do that! Again, it should be a voluntary attitude that she displays, no different than what you might expect from a Christian brother if you asked him to cooperate with you in some way.


“Under-set”—to be or to do?

To me, when I think of a person being “under-set” to another, I don’t think of someone having to obey like a slave. It is simply a matter of a positional arrangement. The literal phraseology of “being under-set” makes it clear that we are to be in a state of being with one another in which we have an attitude of being under-set rather than taking some kind of action to show our “under-settedness.”

The Lord has under-set us one to another (v 21), and we are to be in that state. By the same token, wives are to be being under-set to their husbands (v 22). It is not that they have to take some action to prove their under-settedness. To put it another way, we could say that the wives are to allow themselves to be under-set (by the Lord, no doubt) to their husbands.


Context, context, context

Also, I like to look at a full context when considering what verses mean; so, for this exercise, let’s look at more verses in the CLNT. Here are the verses directly preceding Terry’s verses:

be filled full with spirit, speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing music in your hearts to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, to our God and Father, being subject to one another in the fear of Christ. (18b–21, CLNT)

So, if some husband thinks that he should “assert himself” with his wife and tell her what to do, he first needs to be in a certain condition: He needs to be filled in spirit, to be speaking in songs in his heart to the Lord, and to be giving thanks for all things to God. I would think that, because of the context, you would have to connect this imperative to the husbands as a pre-condition for what is to follow. Therefore, before we get to the under-setting, husbands need to be truly thanking God for their wives as they are being filled in spirit with a song in their heart. Brothers, this is how we are to relate to our wives, not require from them some kind of servile obedience.

In addition, to those of you who were in the Local Church during the time I was there, you will probably remember the “be ye being filled in spirit” translation, which is quite literal. What you might not have realized was how much this phrase is tied in with the husband-wife relationship. Witness Lee drummed his be-filled-in-spirit-by-calling perspective into us as if everything would work out in our lives by “calling on the name of the Lord.” As I found out, calling on the Lord “at my wife” was not conducive to a good marriage relationship.


What’s good for the boys is good for the girls

Paul states that we all are to be subject to one another. The subjection Paul was talking about for wives to their husbands is the same subjective posture that we brothers are to be taking with other brothers. It is also the same posture that we are to take with all Christians, including all of our Christian sisters. The submission is voluntary and one in which one party relinquishes his or her desires for those of another. Brothers, how often in a group of Christians do you adopt an attitude of under-settedness to the sisters?

Please realize, brother, that your wife is to be “under-setted” to you (v 22) just as you are to be under-setted to your fellow brothers and sisters (v 21). It’s the same Greek root word in both verses. For example, when you get with another Christian brother, are you under-setted to him, that is, are you in “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”? If you are not, why do you expect more from your wife? The imperative is the same in the Greek interlinear, and the demands are “next–door neighbors” to each other:

being under-set to one another in fear of God the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

If you want to take the position that “undersetted” in verse 22 should be understood in the military sense of the word and that your wife must obey your every directive, then you must be willing, according to verse 21, to obey every directive that comes your way in the body of Christ, from either male or female, older or younger, etc., that is, if you want to apply the Bible consistently.

Grammatical sidebar: First off, I have not studied Greek grammar; I’m just reading the interlinear version in English and using my brain. So, here’s what makes sense to me, considering the way that the chapter wraps up. The punctuation could be changed so that the phrase, “in fear of God,” goes with the under-setting of the wives rather than with the under-setting of one another. Therefore, to punctuate the interlinear, we could have this:

… being under-set to one another. In fear of God, the wives to the own husbands be ye being under-set as to the Lord … (21–22, S4A [www.scripture4all.org])

I will refer to this again when I get to the last verse of the chapter.


Back to the verses in question

In sequence, let’s pick up again with Terry’s verses in the CLNT version:

Let the wives be subject to their own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the ecclesia, and He is the Saviour of the body. Nevertheless, as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives also to their husbands in everything. (22–24)

So, we husbands are to let our wives be subject to us, not require it of them. And the wives, then, adopt this attitude as to the Lord. By way of example, when my wife and I left the Local Church, she was afraid to leave because of all of the indoctrination she had received. To get out, she simply trusted the Lord and made the decision to go out with me (rather than become what she termed “a Local Church widow”). Therefore, when a wife has that attitude that you want, don’t forget that she has it as to the Lord. (It’s not that you’re necessarily so great, as in my case.)

Also, look at the last verse again. It says that “as the ecclesia is subject to Christ, thus are the wives to their own husbands in everything.” In other words, your wife’s posture toward you is waiting on your posture to Christ. Your wife’s attitude of submissiveness is a reflection of your submissiveness to Christ. Men sometimes say that they don’t get enough respect from their wives; but, as the saying goes, respect must be earned. Therefore, to earn respect, be someone worthy of respect, do something worthy of respect. For example, if you respect your wife’s thoughts and feelings, maybe she, in turn, will respect your decisions.


Wash in the Word

In addition to the verses which precede verses 22–24, we also have to look at the verses that come after them; so, here they are, still from the CLNT:

Husbands, be loving your wives according as Christ also loves the ecclesia, and gives Himself up for its sake, (25)

So, to love our wives is to be willing to die for them. For many brothers, I would think, to put your physical life on the line for your wife would be relatively easy. But what about the psychological and emotional part of your being? When you’re busy and she asks you to perform one of your responsibilities, like taking out the trash, what then? Does it become a slow and painful death? All of the questions in this post are rhetorical, by the way; please don’t try to give me answers to them. If you will, take them in prayer to the Lord. Here are the next verses:

that He should be hallowing it, cleansing it in the bath of the water (with His declaration), that He should be presenting to Himself a glorious ecclesia, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it may be holy and flawless. (26–27)

From the verse, we read that Christ is cleansing the ecclesia with His declaration, or, as the King James puts it, that He “might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.” Brothers, when was the last time you washed in the water of His word and then washed your wife in His word? Now, don’t let my wife know that I wrote this, but she has been speaking to me about my speaking the Word to her, or lack thereof. What we speak is important, so we need to speak the truth to our wives and about our wives. The principalities and powers need to hear the truth from our mouths. (And, by the way, this doesn’t mean that we pray-read “at our wives.”)


If church is important, love your wife

On, then, to the flesh or, better said, to our bodies:

Thus, the husbands also ought to be loving their own wives as their own bodies. He who is loving his own wife is loving himself. For no one at any time hates his own flesh, but is nurturing and cherishing it, according as Christ also the ecclesia, (28–29)

Now, we get down to it. Are you loving your wife as your own body? If so, you are loving yourself, which we are commanded to do, by the way (“love your neighbor as yourself”). Don’t you nurture and cherish your own body? In the same way, Christ nourishes and cherishes the ecclesia. We are to do the same with our wives.

for we are members of His body. For this "a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh." This secret is great: yet I am saying this as to Christ and as to the ecclesia. (30–32)

Why are we to be loving our wives in such a way, according to these verses? It is because we are all members of Christ’s body. So, if the body of Christ is really important to us, then we should be nurturing and cherishing—loving—our wives in the same way that Christ loves us. It is also because we are to be one flesh with our wives as examples of a foundational secret. A marriage should represent the union of Christ and His bride. Let’s live with our wives in such a way as to fulfill God’s intention. Instead of just talking about The Church, how about we actually take care of the church by really taking care of our wives?

Moreover, it’s fear

Finally, at the end of the chapter, Paul concludes with a “Moreover.”

Moreover, you also individually, each be loving his own wife thus, as himself, yet that the wife may be fearing the husband. (33)

To me, “Moreover” is like the word that introduces the grand finale to the section, the all-important wrap-up. So, after everything that he’s brought up, what does Paul emphasize at the end of this section? Firstly, he writes to each husband to be loving his own wife as himself. Then, he doesn’t mention to the wife to be being under-set to her husband. In fact, he doesn’t even state what she must do; he tells her what she may do, that is, to be “fearing” her husband. Remember my earlier grammatical note, that it is in fear of God that the wife has an attitude of under-settedness toward her husband. Here we see the re-emergence of that thought in a quick summary fashion.

And, back to words, to me, “fearing” does not have mainly the connotation of “reverence” or “respect” but of “awe,” in the sense of fearing God. Remember, in Paul’s presentation, the husband is positionally likened to Christ; so, I imagine that the wife is to fear the husband similar to the way that she would fear God. Therefore, to me, it is not really a matter of reverence, as if a husband should somehow be worthy of worship, or that a husband has earned respect by some deeds he has done; it is a matter that the wife fears the husband because she fears God.

So, brothers, let's allow our wives to follow the Lord and don’t expect that they will obey us. Leave the submission, subjection, respect, etc. up to them as they are being under-set. We need their help more than we know, which is why Eve came on the scene in the first place. Let's nurture our wives as best we can and focus on our submission to the Lord. He will take care of the rest.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by John

In what follows, I will provide my view of the meaning of the verses that Terry asks about in post #1, as well as the surrounding verses for context. Another bad habit that Witness Lee taught us was to focus on particular verses without regard for the context.

So, guys, here’s another thing to contemplate: If you think that you are in a military-like marriage, a la Witness Lee’s Local Church marines, then maybe you can go with the military use of the word, issue orders to your wife, and expect her to obey your orders or suffer the consequences. No, no, no—I hope you don’t do that! Again, it should be a voluntary attitude that she displays, no different than what you might expect from a Christian brother if you asked him to cooperate with you in some way.

If you want to take the position that “undersetted” in verse 22 should be understood in the military sense of the word and that your wife must obey your every directive, then you must be willing, according to verse 21, to obey every directive that comes your way in the body of Christ, from either male or female, older or younger, etc., that is, if you want to apply the Bible consistently.

So, to love our wives is to be willing to die for them. For many brothers, I would think, to put your physical life on the line for your wife would be relatively easy. But what about the psychological and emotional part of your being? When you’re busy and she asks you to perform one of your responsibilities, like taking out the trash, what then? Does it become a slow and painful death?

So, brothers, let's allow our wives to follow the Lord and don’t expect that they will obey us. Leave the submission, subjection, respect, etc. up to them as they are being under-set. We need their help more than we know, which is why Eve came on the scene in the first place. Let's nurture our wives as best we can and focus on our submission to the Lord. He will take care of the rest.

So much said and well said John. Speak about context. I have been told the samething by a former lc elder in my geographic region. How usage of verses have been taken out of context. For example 1 Corinthians 14:26. Taken out of context from the rest of 1 Corinthians 14. That's just one example.

Loving our wives, that we would physically die for them. Most brothers would say they would, realizing having to follow through is extremely unlikely. How about psychologically or emotionally?
How about the brother married to a criticizing sister? Isn't he dying for her emotionally daily?
What about the brother whose wife gets upset with him, not for what he did, but for what he didn't do? He's dying for her psychologically. For most men (believers or non-believers), the fleshly reaction is reciprocation. To respond would only intensify the matter. I have learned it's better not to say anything. It's my own cross to bear. I am faithful God would convict my wife's conscience when her words or actions have been uncalled for.

John mentioned taking out the trash. In my own experience which I'll ask brothers reading this post, what about when your wife asks you to scrub the toilets inside and out? Do you voluntarily submit out of love to your wife? Or is that too much to bear and you respond and infer that's a sister's duty?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Amen brother! Tremendous read, thank you John for sharing that!