What have we learned?

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

[*]Christianity is robust and is not nearly so divided as I was taught in the LRC.

Excellent point. I found christian assemblies with impressive corporate testimony. I found assemblies where the testimony in the children and teen-agers put the LRC to shame.

Originally Posted by OBW

[*]Language does not enhance truth, although it can help to clarify it.[*]Language does not increase the level of worship or improve it except to the extent that it corrects errors in thought.

I appreciate both statements. And as you elsewhere noted about James' epistle, it's not what you say, but what you do that matters most.

When we see the inadequacy of our own communicative efforts, it should serve to humble us from the notion that we can parse God's language down to the truth.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

When we see the inadequacy of our own communicative efforts, it should serve to humble us from the notion that we can parse God's language down to the truth.

This is what we all need to learn. It is a huge problem in the LRC, but still a significant problem in Christianity in general, at least the Evangelical/Fundamental wings. We are all too often lost in a forest of actual truth trying to force two words to wag the dog into something that isn't really there.

Yet, at some level, it is in parsing the scriptures Lee used, along with their contexts that showed me many of his errors. If you actually follow the grammar of the sentence within the paragraph within the whole passage, there is suddenly a completely different meaning and truth. And that is the one that was put there. Not the context-less gibberish like "Jesus is just the Spirit."

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

...at some level, it is in parsing the scriptures Lee used, along with their contexts that showed me many of his errors.

True. And it is in parsing the writings of one another that leads us into endless wranglings, when we are not careful. One of the shortcomings of the internet forums is that ultimately it is just about words. And language, as you put it, has its limitations in bringing us to the truth.

My solution is not become emotionally invested in my words or ideas any more than I do those of Mr. Lee or anyone else. So when OBW or Igzy or Ohio come along and "abuse" my fondest notions, I have to accept their demolition as being potentially as real, or true, as my construction. And their proposed alternatives are perhaps superior to mine.

Originally Posted by OBW

...If you actually follow the grammar of the sentence within the paragraph within the whole passage, there is suddenly a completely different meaning and truth.

This is easily what I have enjoyed most about the forums. You get a fresh look at that supposedly familiar, and previously comfortable, passage of scripture, and suddenly your conceptual map becomes drastically re-arranged. In a way, it's a continuation of the initial thrill you get when you discover the truth of God's saving love.

Embloldened by OBW's pevious efforts:

--I discovered that "giving elders who serve well a double honor" may suggest that there are non-serving elders, i.e. older folks, who also deserve [single] honor. Mayhaps an "elder" is someone who is more mature, aged, or experienced, versus "...a delegated authority from headquarters". See 1 Timothy 5:17, e.g.

--I discovered that "ekklesia" may have meant something other than what we call "church", if you look at the context in which the word was used. Acts 7:38 is an example, but hardly the only one. Maybe "ekklesia" meant something more like "meeting", which means you could have multiple ekklesia in one urban area without being divisive or whatever. Paul seems to suggest this when he notes ekklesia in the homes at the end of his epistles to the Romans and Colossians.

--I discovered that God really likes it when we praise and bless and thank and honor and glorify Him. God really, really, really, likes it.

--I discovered that Mr. Lee's focus on the human spirit led him, and us, to neglect the human soul.

Here's a Lee proof-text: "This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him..."

Mr. Lee says that Zechariah 12:1 puts the human spirit on equal footing with the heavens and the earth. But look at Matthew 16:26: "And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?" Here the soul is worth more than the whole world.

Of course, the way to gain our soul-life is to lose it; yes, I know that. But it suggests to me that what God is after here is our soul. Not an incidental point.

--I learned that the hierarchical, top-down leadership structure of the LRC is no different from the world and most christian organizations. Surprise, surprise.

And that Jesus, conversely, said if you want to be greatest in heaven, be the least here on earth. Surprise, surprise.

--I learned about Daystar. Never heard about that one in my many conversations about the glorious history of the local churches. Only heard vague references to "rebellions" and "storms".

--I learned that there is one vision, one speaking, one trumpet. And that vision, that speaking, that trumpet, is none other than the Person of Jesus the Nazarene. He is God's Oracle for this time and henceforth for every time. There is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Anyone who insinuates themselves into "deputy authority" is suspect, in my jaundiced eyes.

Today, that "deputy authority" is found as the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit. But each one of us has the anointing. To hold up one anointing over another is to create hierarchy.

(Of course, there is clearly a celestial hierarchy. But to set up a worldly, power- and fear-based hierarchy is a doomed attempt to re-create and imitate the celestial one.)

--Lastly, as John said, the things we could learn probably could not be contained in all the books to be written. But these things have been written (hopefully) so that you might know that Jesus is, and remains, the kurios: the Master.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

True. And it is in parsing the writings of one another that leads us into endless wranglings, when we are not careful. One of the shortcomings of the internet forums is that ultimately it is just about words. And language, as you put it, has its limitations in bringing us to the truth.

My solution is not become emotionally invested in my words or ideas any more than I do those of Mr. Lee or anyone else. So when OBW or Igzy or Ohio come along and "abuse" my fondest notions, I have to accept their demolition as being potentially as real, or true, as my construction. And their proposed alternatives are perhaps superior to mine.

I am so sorry. When did I do that?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When did I do that?

I was being semi-facetious. Whenever someone else isn't completely "one" with every word of my speaking/writing, I could, in my rampant subjective and self-oriented perspective, interpret that I am being "persecuted", "abused", "attacked", etc.

So I was characterizing the back-and-forth of exchanging and critiquing ideas on the forums in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Sorry if it didn't come across.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was being semi-facetious. Whenever someone else isn't completely "one" with every word of my speaking/writing, I could, in my rampant subjective and self-oriented perspective, interpret that I am being "persecuted", "abused", "attacked", etc.

So I was characterizing the back-and-forth of exchanging and critiquing ideas on the forums in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Sorry if it didn't come across.

I'll try better in the future, but don't expect the same courtesy from Igzy or OBW.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll try better in the future, but don't expect the same courtesy from Igzy or OBW.

I resemble that remark!