What have we learned?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother NFNL, we are on different wavelengths here.


So when I speak about discerning "the good from the worthless," (as in Hebrews 5.14) we are obviously speaking of different things.

I don't think we are, brother.

You had said:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.

You did not say, "I need to discern which teachings of Christ, of the Bible, of the Truth had been leavened." - you speak rather of Lee's teachings. You are saying that some of Lee's teachings were good, and that you can somehow separate the good from the bad. That's a difficult if not impossible task, and that's what 1 Corinthians 5:6 tells us.

Imagine the sum of Lee's ministry - his entire set of Life Studies, commentaries, messages, etc. etc. are likened to a loaf of Wonderbread. Now I come and place this loaf of Wonderbread in front of you, and say "Here my brother is food to nourish you. Only beware the leaven of the bread. That will poison you, sicken you, and kill you." Would that loaf be of any use to you at all? HOW do you pick leaven - yeast - out of the loaf to eat the nourishing substance in that loaf? More importantly, do you not see that even if you were able to exactly chemically separate what was left of the yeast from rest of the components of the dough, is it not still true that the presence of yeast in the bread earlier changed it's very composition and nature? No matter what you do, the dough was effected by that yeast, and it can never again be the same.

I began reading this morning from an abridged edition of Jessie Penn-Lewis' "War on the Saints". What touched me immediately was the Forward to this edition - please read this through carefully:

"John Wesley, in dealing with overbalance and fanaticism, uses the word enthusiam, and says: "Enthusiasm is undoubtedly a disorder of the mind; and such disorder as greatly hinders the exercise of reason. Nay, sometimes it wholly sets it aside: it not only dims but shuts the eyes of understanding. It may, therefore, well be accounted a species of madness; of madness rather than folly: seeing a fool is properly one who draws wrong conclusions from right premises; whereas a madman draws right conclusions, but from wrong premises. And so does an enthusiast. Suppose his premises are true, and his conclusions would necessarily follow. But here lies his mistake: his premises are false. He imagines himself to be what he is not, and therefore, setting out wrong, the farther he goes, the more he wanders out of the way."


My God my God! Does this very word not speak to the nature of the LSM system in it's entireity, and to your own quest to discover and remove the leaven specifically? Lee's premises are false - and his ministry was built entirely upon one premise: That the Bible contains MORE THAN ONE GOSPEL - that it has a LOW and a HIGH Gospel... that there was a "different gospel" to be preached, that no one else on Earth was preaching: God's Economy! We are warned very specifically within Scripture to stay away from those who preach a different gospel (Didn't Paul say: " I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned." (Galatians 1:6-9) and also "..there shall be false prophets among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies... through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you." (2nd Peter 2:1-3 excerpted), and did He not praise the Church in Ephesus when He said "you have tried those who say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars." Revelation 2:2. In Lee's case, we ALL ignored Christ's admonition. I am not singling you out brother - far from it: we were ALL decieved. That's indeed a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow it we must.

How were we so easily deceived? Because, I think, we were seduced. We were seduced by a man who really was very gifted at writing and constructing clever arguments to make his case. We were deceived because he built a system that gave us something that many Christian groups don't have: a true community of fellow saints. That was sweet, I confess it - but the plan behind that community was most foul: It was a plan that would see us isolated from our brothers and sisters in Christ, the True Body Universal, and would make us more susceptible to the deception within, so that even when we heard troubling news, we immediately discounted it and determined that to even raise questions would be rebellious.

We became the enthusiastic slaves of the system: we helped build a Corporation built on book publishing, funded by our donations, built up by our time spent constructing halls and housing... and all to do what? To reach the lost for Christ? To preach the gospel (even the so-called 'Low gospel') to the unbelieving world? To provide shelter for the poor and food for the hungry? To reach out to those in prison or those in distress? No. None of those things. The money and time we invested in LSM was used to build up it's offices and it's corporate profits and launch lawsuits against fellow believers to protect those assets and that income... and ultimately to raise first one man (Lee) and today a consortium of them up (the so-called 'Blended Brothers') on pedestals where they do not belong. Where no man belongs, in the place we are to reserve for Christ and Christ alone (Ephesians 5:23b "Christ is the head of the Church, His Body, of which He is the Saviour.")

Shame on us all! We were taken in because we did not study enough of the The Word, because we were not able to discern for ourselves what was the truth. Because we failed to test every spirit. We failed to trust our own discernment. We came to imagine we were something that we were not: the only true church, the only overcomers in a world full of perverse 'christians' who didn't know Him as we knew Him. The truth is, we thought we were rich and increased with goods and had need of nothing. We thought we had it all. But we were poor and wretched and miserable and blind and naked. (Rev 3:17-18).


The only defense against false apostles is found in staying in the Word. This is something each of us needs to do daily. And don't just study - obey. That's the part left entirely out of LSM's ministry: The need to obey Christ and the commands of the Father. It's left out because that would put you under the light yoke of Christ, and out from under the heavy and burdensome yoke of LSM.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

You did not say, "I need to discern which teachings of Christ, of the Bible, of the Truth had been leavened." - you speak rather of Lee's teachings. You are saying that some of Lee's teachings were good, and that you can somehow separate the good from the bad. That's a difficult if not impossible task, and that's what 1 Corinthians 5:6 tells us.

I think we are playing word games here. I have already explained myself, and gave some examples to clarify my posts. When I first heard WL, I was a very young, but born again believer in Cleveland. Growing up in the Catholic schools, I had very little Bible knowledge. I had barely read the Bible. I was at that time doing the same purging work in my mind concerning all the Catholic teachings I had received.

In my first visit to Anaheim for the Revelations training, Lee taught me, for example ...

• That the book was the "revelation of Jesus Christ" v1.1 and not the revelation of frogs and scorpions -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me that the book was a book of signs v.1.1 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me that John was the writer, and he was exiled on Patmos for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ v1.2 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me that those who hear these words and keep them is blessed -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me there were 7 churches in Asia, and many details about them -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me that v.1.4 shows us the Triune God, the Father Son and Spirit -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me about Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of the dead, indicating that He resurrected as the Firstborn Son v.1.5 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me how He loves me and has loosed us from our sins by His blood v.1.5 -- shall I throw out that teaching?
• WL taught me that we are His kingdom, and we are all priests to serve God v.1.6 -- shall I throw out that teaching?

Help me out here brother NFNL. I have only mentioned the first 5 verses of my first training with WL. I had 10 more years of Life Study trainings after this. And you want me to throw out all WL teachings? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

• WL taught me that the book was a book of signs v.1.1 -- shall I throw out that teaching?

Help me out here brother NFNL. I have only mentioned the first 5 verses of my first training with WL. I had 10 more years of Life Study trainings after this. And you want me to throw out all WL teachings? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

I'm outside doing the yard work thinking about how all the Christians I know talk about going to heaven, hoping they can play golf, and praying their beloved cat will be there too! They talk about the pearly gates and the streets of gold -- now remember that gold is over $1400/oz by now. They talk about skipping down the golden streets to their buddies mansion ... how ridiculous!

And you want me to throw out WL's teachings?!? You want me to return to my superstitions? You want me to return to the ignorance of my Christian "childhood?" WL taught me many solid foundational truths of the Bible. O sure, I could have learned them from someone else, but I didn't. I learned them from that Lee. Many things I also learned from other brothers in the LC's. After close to 4 decades, how can I distinguish exactly what I learned from who?

NFNL, let me be honest and frank. If we define leaven like this, then we must conclude that every teacher on earth is leavened. So we must do what some have done leaving the LC's, they crawl into their little cave, with the Bible cracked occasionally, and live in their pure unleavened bliss.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Let me be frank then too, Ohio:

Lee taught you many biblical truths, but he didn't invent them and he wasn't the first to discover them. He was a liar when he said he "stood on the shoulders of giants." What he did was 'name drop', and then act like he had absorbed everything from everyone who came before - chewed it up, processed it and digested it and then excreted it for us to consume. That's a lie. Did he read some of them? Undoubtedly. Were his teachings in line with theirs? Some of them, but far from all. He went down his own road.

Read books by the people Lee claims to have studied, and you will see that these people teach many different things from Lee - that they hold to different ideas, interpretations, and that according to their writings, were they alive today, they would be appalled by that man and what he had to say.

Listen to the tone you take towards brothers and sisters in Christ in your post; is it one of Love? Of course not! Why not? Because you were raised up on Lee's teachings - and he had NO love for members of the Body who would not submit to his interpretations and teachings... and so it also hard for you. You see one who is weaker in the faith, and you express (although I cannot speak to what you feel) contempt. That's Lee through and through.

If you don't think abandoning teachings known to be built on false premises is the right thing to do, then you should take it up with God - because that is precisely the instruction He has given us in His Word: and He demands a pure and spotless Bride.

I didn't tell you to throw out the Bible. Far from it. I told you to throw out Lee's interpretations. Did he have some insights? Sure, but they weren't his - he's not unique. Pick up the books of others, look outside LSM's walls to the vastness of the Body and forgetting the things that are behind reach forth unto those things which are before, and press toward the mark for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 3:13-14 paraphrased)

This forum is populated, unfortunately, with many people who continue NOT to press forward - NOT to forget the things which are behind - but to instead look back with nostalgia and say, 'man, I thought we were on top of the world... I thought I had so much.' You know what, Lot's wife did the same thing: and look what happened to her.

I believe it was OBW who has said that his parents couldn't bear to leave LSM because they couldn't bear to think that they'd wasted so many years of their lives on something that just plain wasn't right. (Sorry Mike, I am working off of memory here and if I am atributing this to you falsely, then please correct me as I do not mean to misrepresent you). How many others here are in the same boat as Mike's parents?

This forum is dominated by threads on LSM's history - about Phillip and Timothy and 'rebellions' etc. etc. This isn't healthy. If you want healing, you need to stop dwelling on the past and worrying at these wounds.

ToGodAlone asked a question on another page: "How long did it take you all to get over it?" he asked. A lot of the people who come to this forum can't give him an honest answer to that question - because they're still not over it.

PS: As regards Penn-Lewis and Wesley - I will use discernment myself as the Bible instructs us to do when reading their writing. I do not hold either up as anything more than a brother or sister in Christ, as prone to sin and error as am I. Thank God for His Son and His Cross and for bearing the weight of our sins upon it! "Living He loved me, Dying He saved me, Buried He carried my sins far away. Rising He justified, Freed me forever: One day He's coming - Oh Glorious Day!"

What a pity Lee despised the cross. Tore them from the very buildings LSM purchased to use as meeting halls. Taught the saints not to wear or display them as they were part of 'pitiful Christianity'. Without the cross, not a one of us would be redeemed. Not a one.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Let me be frank then too, Ohio:

Lee taught you many biblical truths, but he didn't invent them and he wasn't the first to discover them. He was a liar when he said he "stood on the shoulders of giants." What he did was 'name drop', and then act like he had absorbed everything from everyone who came before - chewed it up, processed it and digested it and then excreted it for us to consume. That's a lie. Did he read some of them? Undoubtedly. Were his teachings in line with theirs? Some of them, but far from all. He went down his own road.

Read books by the people Lee claims to have studied, and you will see that these people teach many different things from Lee - that they hold to different ideas, interpretations, and that according to their writings, were they alive today, they would be appalled by that man and what he had to say.

Listen to the tone you take towards brothers and sisters in Christ in your post; is it one of Love? Of course not! Why not? Because you were raised up on Lee's teachings - and he had NO love for members of the Body who would not submit to his interpretations and teachings... and so it also hard for you. You see one who is weaker in the faith, and you express (although I cannot speak to what you feel) contempt. That's Lee through and through.

If you don't think abandoning teachings known to be built on false premises is the right thing to do, then you should take it up with God - because that is precisely the instruction He has given us in His Word: and He demands a pure and spotless Bride.

I didn't tell you to throw out the Bible. Far from it. I told you to throw out Lee's interpretations. Did he have some insights? Sure, but they weren't his - he's not unique. Pick up the books of others, look outside LSM's walls to the vastness of the Body and forgetting the things that are behind reach forth unto those things which are before, and press toward the mark for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 3:13-14 paraphrased)

This forum is populated, unfortunately, with many people who continue NOT to press forward - NOT to forget the things which are behind - but to instead look back with nostalgia and say, 'man, I thought we were on top of the world... I thought I had so much.' You know what, Lot's wife did the same thing: and look what happened to her.

I believe it was OBW who has said that his parents couldn't bear to leave LSM because they couldn't bear to think that they'd wasted so many years of their lives on something that just plain wasn't right. (Sorry Mike, I am working off of memory here and if I am atributing this to you falsely, then please correct me as I do not mean to misrepresent you). How many others here are in the same boat as Mike's parents?

This forum is dominated by threads on LSM's history - about Phillip and Timothy and 'rebellions' etc. etc. This isn't healthy. If you want healing, you need to stop dwelling on the past and worrying at these wounds.

ToGodAlone asked a question on another page: "How long did it take you all to get over it?" he asked. A lot of the people who come to this forum can't give him an honest answer to that question - because they're still not over it.

PS: As regards Penn-Lewis and Wesley - I will use discernment myself as the Bible instructs us to do when reading their writing. I do not hold either up as anything more than a brother or sister in Christ, as prone to sin and error as am I. Thank God for His Son and His Cross and for bearing the weight of our sins upon it! "Living He loved me, Dying He saved me, Buried He carried my sins far away. Rising He justified, Freed me forever: One day He's coming - Oh Glorious Day!"

What a pity Lee despised the cross. Tore them from the very buildings LSM purchased to use as meeting halls. Taught the saints not to wear or display them as they were part of 'pitiful Christianity'. Without the cross, not a one of us would be redeemed. Not a one.

We are getting no where here. You either have not read my posts, or have decided not to address my points.

You have judged all those who "populate this forum." You have decided who is pressing forward and who is looking back and worrying about the past, who is healing and who is not. You judge me for expressing contempt for weaker members, but who do I hate, and show contempt for? Who said I never abandoned teachings based on false premises? Prove your claims.

Then you tell me that you have discernment concerning others' writings such as JPL and JW, all the while denigrating me for doing the same with WL's teachings. Is that not hypocrisy? Why can only you have discernment but not me? Why do you get to berate me with condescending tone, but I can't even plead my case concerning how I interpret leaven?

Are you just having a bad day? Everyone has those. You sure seem to have changed recently, and all over this one little comment I made yesterday ...

I also need to discern which of WL's teachings were leavened, so I can purge myself of those. Otherwise, by discarding my entire LC experience, I throw out the good with the bad.

I wrote that in response to what I felt was a heartfelt inquiry by Zeek in post #16. You'd think I desecrated the temple or something worse by the way NFNL has come after me.

[ZNPaaneah]

NFNL, you seem to have some very strong opinions. But I could never imagine, from my own experience, of comparing the LRC to Sodom. I can not imagine any basis for that, but I am speaking from my limited experience. 2nd, i would say that my 20 years spent in the LRC were spent studying the Bible with more energy and prayer than at any time in my life. Yes, WL was way over hyped, even then, but that is not to say that his speaking wasn't full of light and grace, at least while he was still doing Life Studies of the NT. Finally, I do have many fond thoughts of the LRC, but the vast majority of them have to do with saints that have nothing to do with WL, or the LSM. These were genuine saints and real experiences of the Lord.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

NFNL, you seem to have some very strong opinions.

I do have many fond thoughts of the LRC, but the vast majority of them have to do with saints that have nothing to do with WL, or the LSM. These were genuine saints and real experiences of the Lord.

Brothers - all of you - I am honestly sorry if my strong opinions have offended you. Let me please speak as clearly as I might as my intention was not to offend, but rather to enlighten. We are not only to encourage one another, after all, but also to correct that which harms not only only the Body but even it's members.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2

I too have fond memories of the saints I met in LSM. We still have a banner picture they made for us when we left Winnipeg hanging in our bedroom. We just had a couple over this past week who came through Calgary to visit and spend time with us. We still pray for them, and they, I am sure, still pray for us. We love them, and I'm not just saying that - I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

But the point is, we talk on this board about the damaging effects of looking at Scripture through "Lee colored glasses". Filtering everything we read through Lee, we know we wind right back up in the system.... but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry, and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done.... and here's why:

Lee taught us that he knew more than any other church leader who came before him, right? Lee believed he couldn't be wrong and he believed he had an answer for everything, correct? Lee taught us to read his material and his material only, to listen to his messages and his messages only, to spend time - as much as humanly possible - in an environment where only what Lee had to say was focused upon and expounded upon again and again... do we agree? What did that produce? What did we become?

1) We started to use Lee's vocabulary. We called ourselves "The Lord's Recovery" - and we believed we were recovered from fallen Christianity. We were set apart and above our fellow saints elsewhere. Some of us believed only we were the Body of Christ. We still use it today here on this board! All this talk of 'releasing messages' instead of 'delivering sermons' - what is that about? I'll tell you: When Lee says 'Release a Message' it means: "Here is what the Lord gave me, and now after I have held it a while for myself, I am going to release it to you." How arrogant! How proud! How wrong! The messages were his, not the Lord's! In short: We became proud.

2) We believed that since Lee had all the answers, we didn't need to read our Bibles for ourselves. We could look to the footnotes and get the answers. We believed that if we discerned something different in the Scriptures from what Lee found, we must be wrong. We quenched the Spirit! Is it any wonder that it can take years to recover from where we were? Sin has consequences, and in quenching the Spirit we sinned deliberately against our God - forsaking Him and His leading for Lee and his. Again: We quenched the Spirit.

3) Lee taught us to pray loudly in his way, not Christ's way. We believed this was the only way to pray. Arrogance! Christ Himself told us exactly how to pray - in secret, so that the Father who hears in secret will reward you - but we made a show of it, praying loud and proud so the other saints could be impressed with how much like Lee we were becoming! We sought approval of men, and not of God.

4) Lee taught us to sit and stand in prayer, but never to kneel... even though one day, every knee will bough. (Romans 14:11 excerpt). How many times did I stand in that meeting Hall, convicted to kneel, but to proud to do so because everyone else in the Hall would have been scandalized? What a fool I was! Forgive me Lord! We forgot that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom (psalm 9:10 & 111:10)... we lost all fear of Him.

5) Lee taught us to despise the cross, it was far too low a gospel. The cross was merely part of a process to make us into Godmen - and nothing more. My daughter was reprimanded for wearing a cross to church - a cross with which she preached that 'low' gospel to her friends at the age of nine... a cross she had asked for, and was proud to wear.

"The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Again: We despised the cross.

6) Like Lee, we became proud and arrogant towards fellow Christians. We expressed that contempt in our speech and in our actions, refusing to meet with them - which is absolutely against the teaching of the main man upon whom Lee claimed to stand: Watchman Nee (who was a genuine brother in Christ). But what did Christ say about our brothers and sisters?

"Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

“And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfis welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matthew 18:3-6

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." Romans 14:1

We refused to receive 'weaker members', we held them in contempt and thereby caused many to sin.

7) Lee taught us to that our love for members is for members alone. If you are not a part of our group, you were not to receive our love. That included family members, friends, and those who once were of us but now left.

"If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. Prophecy and speaking in unknown languagesand special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!" 1 Corinthians 1:8

We had no real Love.

...So let's summarize:

LSM made us proud, unloving, bigoted Christians who thought we had it all. We spent our money and our time building a financial giant to churn out more propaganda, and did not learn to go out and preach the gospel. If we did reach out to others, it was to gain them for 'The Recovery' and further divide the Body of Christ. By this we lost our testimony. We quenched the Spirit and began to believe we needed Lee to tell us what to think and believe.

What did we REALLY gain?

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Brothers - all of you - I am honestly sorry if my strong opinions have offended you. Let me please speak as clearly as I might as my intention was not to offend, but rather to enlighten. We are not only to encourage one another, after all, but also to correct that which harms not only only the Body but even it's members.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

But the point is, we talk on this board about the damaging effects of looking at Scripture through "Lee colored glasses". Filtering everything we read through Lee, we know we wind right back up in the system.... but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry, and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done....

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I felt to stop reading your post and respond to this first. This phrase is troublesome, "but then we want to be able to read Lee, now that we've got a red flag on his ministry." You say "we" so I have to assume you still have conflict at home, perhaps your wife still reads the messages by WL. I believe this is a personal decision which each former member has to address on their own. It's a common practice for Christians to read teachings and books about the Bible. There are bookstores and websites full of books. All of these are flawed, because they are not the word of God, and that's why some believers will not read anything but God's word. They just want to be detoxed of man's words. All other books must be received with discernment.

Now let me say something personally, having been actively receiving the ministry of WL for about ten years, from the mid-70's to the mid-80's. At some point in the mid-80's during "the new way," I pretty much lost my appetite for his ministry, finding it unappetizing and boring, without the inspiration that once existed. This forum actually has been helpful to me to discover the reasons why his ministry had lost the anointing. After this point, the only messages and books I read were those the church was involved with. Back in the early 90's, I canceled my LSM Standing Order, after one of the Blendeds rebuked us for letting the ministry books accumulate dust.

This next phrase "and somehow gleen 'only the good' from it.... I don't believe it can be done...." for sure has come up in prior posts directed at me. This misunderstanding distorts the facts, and perhaps this is the source of the conflict. I never encouraged anyone to go to WL's books and "gleen only the good" from them. Read my posts again. My comments are based on the reality that those of us who have left the Recovery are already filled with teachings which we know are leavened and toxic to Christian walk. What shall we do with all that we received while in the LC's? That is the question I addressed.

As I posted above, some former members have unfortunately "chucked it all" following their departure from the LC's. They threw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. They could not differentiate what was of God and what was of man. This is most unfortunate. Thus we have heard of some who have left the faith, being shipwrecked, and dove head first into alcohol, drugs, alternative lifestyles, atheism, new age religions, etc. It surprises me that by addressing these very real tragedies, you would feel that I am showing "contempt" for the weaker believers. This is just the opposite of what I am attempting to do on this forum.

My goal initially on these forums was to "discover what happened to us," and to provide others with information I thought could help them. Many have thanked me over the years. Part of that process is to identify those things which were unhealthy, leavened, or toxic so that our faith would remain. Our love for the Lord and His word would be restored. Many posters have come and gone over the years, and did appreciate the forum information and insights.

Perhaps some other posters, who have known me longer, could also step in to provide some help here. I have PM'd the moderator.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

2) We believed that since Lee had all the answers, we didn't need to read our Bibles for ourselves. We could look to the footnotes and get the answers. We believed that if we discerned something different in the Scriptures from what Lee found, we must be wrong. We quenched the Spirit! Is it any wonder that it can take years to recover from where we were? Sin has consequences, and in quenching the Spirit we sinned deliberately against our God - forsaking Him and His leading for Lee and his. Again: We quenched the Spirit.

I take issue with the use of the term we in the previous paragraph. It is definitely not true. It may be your experience but not mine. When I came into the LRC they didn't have a RcV. All you had, at most, was the translation for the last book that was done during the life study training and the footnotes. Everyone came to meetings with non LSM Bibles and there was very little use of footnotes. I watched as EM and RG promoted the footnotes, sold the footnotes and developed the teachings concerning using them in the meetings. But, his approach "did not work for me" so I ignored him. I never had the experience of looking at the footnotes and finding answers, though I certainly heard others share that testimony, I didn't know what they were talking about and left it at that. I did not believe that WL had all the answers, my only burden when I came to the LRC was to learn how to read the Bible. I did hear others speak that way, but there were certainly many that didn't feel that way, at least in my experience. Nor did I feel I was wrong if I saw something that WL didn't. There are many examples and if you want I will share some. I once put together a 20 page report on the precious stones in the NJ, in the report I differed with WL interpretation on Jasper. As a result he decided the entire study was not worth using. However, I stood by my decision and didn't change. Also, WL taught that based on the NT verses the dimensions of the NJ would be a Cube and therefore it is not a practical design of a city. I felt he was wrong, that the NT description describes a hemisphere, and enclosing a city within a dome would match the description, something Buckminster Fuller recommended doing. I also published that as well.

3) Lee taught us to pray loudly in his way, not Christ's way. We believed this was the only way to pray. Arrogance! Christ Himself told us exactly how to pray - in secret, so that the Father who hears in secret will reward you - but we made a show of it, praying loud and proud so the other saints could be impressed with how much like Lee we were becoming! We sought approval of men, and not of God.

Again, I take issue with the use of the term "we" and "us". First of all, Ray Graver did a pretty good study of the teaching of pray reading, he provided quotes from quite a few highly respected Christians including Martin Luther and George Muller, and Hudson Taylor. He quoted quite a few Bible verses as well. He published this as a small booklet on pray reading. The point was that this concept of praying the Bible is not new, or unique to WL but has been practiced for thousands of years. 2nd, I was never taught that this is the only way to pray. 3rd, if you are going to have a prayer meeting, or pray during a meeting it is rather impractical to do the praying in secret. Jesus also taught "my house is a house of prayer". By that did He mean that the temple was filled with tiny closets that hundreds of Israelites could hide in and pray? That is absurd. Paul talked about when you pray in a meeting. If you don't like pray reading, fine. But, I was never taught it is the only way to pray, nor is it unscriptural, at least the way I practiced it (I cannot speak for everyone).

4) Lee taught us to sit and stand in prayer, but never to kneel... even though one day, every knee will bough. (Romans 14:11 excerpt). How many times did I stand in that meeting Hall, convicted to kneel, but to proud to do so because everyone else in the Hall would have been scandalized? What a fool I was! Forgive me Lord! We forgot that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom (psalm 9:10 & 111:10)... we lost all fear of Him.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that anyone would be scandalized by someone kneeling while praying. The idea is totally absurd to me and has no basis in my personal experience.

5) Lee taught us to despise the cross, it was far too low a gospel. The cross was merely part of a process to make us into Godmen - and nothing more. My daughter was reprimanded for wearing a cross to church - a cross with which she preached that 'low' gospel to her friends at the age of nine... a cross she had asked for, and was proud to wear.
"The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction[/color]! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
Again: We despised the cross.

No, I have many experiences of the cross from my days in the LRC. That was where I learned of the cross. Now no doubt the LRC was highly averse to any "idols" and WL did teach that a cross as a pendant was an idol. You can not equate that with despising the cross anymore than someone having a problem with a painting of "Jesus" can not be equated with despising Jesus.

......So let's summarize:

LSM made us proud, unloving, bigoted Christians who thought we had it all. We spent our money and our time building a financial giant to churn out more propaganda, and did not learn to go out and preach the gospel. If we did reach out to others, it was to gain them for 'The Recovery' and further divide the Body of Christ. By this we lost our testimony. We quenched the Spirit and began to believe we needed Lee to tell us what to think and believe.

What did we REALLY gain?

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

If you would share your testimony as "Yours" then I would have no issue in receiving it. But if you continue to attempt to share your testimony as my testimony I will correct you.

As to the summary --

1. LSM had a limited influence on my life. I speak this as one that served in the LSM printing materials for about 3 years, who spent 18 months building the Irving hall, which was an LSM project, and who spent years in the FTTT. Despite all of that I would still put LSM influence on my LRC experience at less than 10%. I don't disagree that you can look at WL's writings and find quotes that are clearly proud, bigoted, and unloving. Did that make us that way? Once again I could easily point to saints as evidence that you are right and likewise I could point to saints that were evidence you were wrong. The biggest balance for me to this influence was the gospel outreach I was involved in from my first day in the LRC. I may be an exception to the rule thanks to David C, but my experience in Houston was to preach the gospel daily. I find that is a very humbling experience, a great antidote to the proud, bigoted, and unloving influence. Also I do not agree with your characterization of my gospel preaching at all. That said, you may be accurately describing a lot of gospel work in the LRC today, but again, your experience is not mine.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I began reading this morning from an abridged edition of Jessie Penn-Lewis' "War on the Saints". What touched me immediately was the Forward to this edition - please read this through carefully:

"John Wesley, in dealing with overbalance and fanaticism, uses the word enthusiam, and says: "Enthusiasm is undoubtedly a disorder of the mind; and such disorder as greatly hinders the exercise of reason.

Brother NFNL, be careful what you read of Penn-Lewis and John Wesley. They are both as "leavened" as Wonder Bread.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother NFNL, be careful what you read of Penn-Lewis and John Wesley. They are both as "leavened" as Wonder Bread.

Yes, you might catch her Jezebel demon, that killed the Welsh revival.