Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Actually, they are not as careless or inaccurate as someone like Ron may think. You may not like the flippant way that Harold says it, but a "full time" training that focuses almost exclusively on the ministry of a man who glossed over so much of the scripture and did the kind of illegitimate allegorizing being discussed in another thread on the rest of it is hard to understand as much more than a way to spread the LSM brand. And it is something used, after all those "truth camps" that the young attend, to complete the indoctrination into the LRC.

As Harold would probably say, "confuse and pickle them while they are young and they will never question it as they grow older." It seems that one of the Proverbs reads something like that, of course with a much purer intent and content.

[ZNPaaneah]

In my experience I did not get any training from the FTTT, what I got was the liberty to labor full time in the gospel with several coworkers. Though after about two months that "liberty" was based on my paying my own way.

I did try their approach to door knocking and I did baptize about 40 or so people that way, but I never felt it was valuable to me. The approach I took on the campus was, to my sense, much more sensible and effective. I was trained in the gospel by DC in Houston. Most of those conducting the training in Taipei, to my impression, did not know what they were talking about when it came to the gospel (the brother from Austin is an exception).

Also, the LSM materials were something that I quickly discarded. You have to realize, if you are going to preach the gospel 20 or 30 times a night, do you really want to repeat the same script 20 or 30 times? All I wanted was a pocket NT and preach improv, it was much more interesting.

Likewise the homestudy materials seemed to me to be a waste of money. The entire benefit of a home meeting is that you can fellowship with the new ones, they get to speak and you respond to their speaking. It seemed to me they were prepared by those who had never gotten their hands dirty. Consulting with us was, in my opinion, a pretense.

[RollingStone]

I have noticed that some people like to have a plan and regimen and feel safe with that. They like to have the same experience over and over, hence the success of Mcdonalds. They really get anxiety if they are in a situation to try something new. I think they think within Oh I might not like that, I don't know. I would be really sad if my only food was Mcdonalds.

When I was a boy I had a lesson about God from an older man who I was helping him plant tree seedlings. He had gotten a few hundred tree seedlings and we were planting them in a big field on a hill. He was digging the holes and I was putting the seedlings in the hole and covering them up stepping on the dirt to complete the job. I was thinking the old man wasn't digging the holes in the right places as I thought they should be evenly spaced and in rows and even suggested that he should be doing that which he responded that man plants things in rows and that God does things in random and that he wanted the little seedlings to grow up and look like God had done the planting. That was about 40 yrs. ago and when i drive by that area I think it would look really silly now if all the trees were evenly spaced in rows as I was thinking they should be.

When I went to share with others with a method, people could see i was following a method but if I was'nt following a method then people could see something else and He gets the Glory not the method.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by RollingStone

I have noticed that some people like to have a plan and regimen and feel safe with that. They like to have the same experience over and over, hence the success of Mcdonalds. They really get anxiety if they are in a situation to try something new. I think they think within Oh I might not like that, I don't know. I would be really sad if my only food was Mcdonalds.

When I was a boy I had a lesson about God from an older man who I was helping him plant tree seedlings. He had gotten a few hundred tree seedlings and we were planting them in a big field on a hill. He was digging the holes and I was putting the seedlings in the hole and covering them up stepping on the dirt to complete the job. I was thinking the old man wasn't digging the holes in the right places as I thought they should be evenly spaced and in rows and even suggested that he should be doing that which he responded that man plants things in rows and that God does things in random and that he wanted the little seedlings to grow up and look like God had done the planting. That was about 40 yrs. ago and when i drive by that area I think it would look really silly now if all the trees were evenly spaced in rows as I was thinking they should be.

When I went to share with others with a method, people could see i was following a method but if I wasn't following a method then people could see something else and He gets the Glory not the method.

Not to take away from what the older man taught you, but simply doing something in a way that you think looks more like God did it is no better than doing in a regimented and orderly way. Either can be my attempt to be God and either can be my labor according to what I have been charged to do by God. Assuming that everything must be orderly, or that it must be random (or a messy kitchen) is to presume. Not saying that either is good or bad. It is not what is done, or even how it is done. It is from what source it is done no matter which way it is done.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by OBW

Not to take away from what the older man taught you, but simply doing something in a way that you think looks more like God did it is no better than doing in a regimented and orderly way. Either can be my attempt to be God and either can be my labor according to what I have been charged to do by God. Assuming that everything must be orderly, or that it must be random (or a messy kitchen) is to presume. Not saying that either is good or bad. It is not what is done, or even how it is done. It is from what source it is done no matter which way it is done.

You aren't still clinging to a teaching of Lee, are you, Mike?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

You aren't still clinging to a teaching of Lee, are you, Mike?

We probably all are and just don't know it.

But if you are referring to the "messy kitchen" I was actually stating that presuming that the "messy kitchen" is normal or even required is just as wrong as presuming that being orderly is right — or wrong. A way to refer to Lee's preference indirectly.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?

It was supposed to be a surprise!

[TLFisher]

Please delete.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

So you are saying the FTT's are legit., and of God. And not for the purpose of promoting the LSM brand? Have you been thru the FTT? Are you telling us the bottom line truth about the FTT, that it is of God, and for the purposes of God, beyond the reach of Living Stream Ministry? Tell it like it is, bro Inddy., like you see it. Correct me with reason, that it's not for propaganda purposes in support of LSM brand churches.

And Ron Kangas doesn't need any reasons to condemn us. We're condemned already, for not being under him. But, in the end, who cares what Kangas condemns? It matters naught. Kangas is just one man among 6.6 billion others.

He's like all the rest of us -- and how's this for rubbing you the wrong way -- a pimple on the butt end of creation ... that thinks it's a beauty mark.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.

Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think based on the broadest definition of propaganda, then of course they are propaganda centers. Based on the narrow association of propaganda with totalitarian regimes and mind control, no I would not go that far. But who knows, 1987 was a long time ago, I have no idea to what this thing has morphed into. (I did visit the FTTA and was not impressed).

Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If you want to remind us that you're different, I think we've already realized that by now.

In any event, thanks for noting the difference in time and place, I made it a point to say FTTA because I don't pretend to understand the Recovery culture on the planet of Taiwan.

I barely understand it here...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If you want to remind us that you're different, I think we've already realized that by now.

In any event, thanks for noting the difference in time and place, I made it a point to say FTTA because I don't pretend to understand the Recovery culture on the planet of Taiwan.

I barely understand it here...

I think the point I was trying to make was that the impetus to act like, look like, and behave like everyone else comes from the trainees themselves and not from some conscience effort on the Trainers. People who are insecure want to blend in.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think the point I was trying to make was that the impetus to act like, look like, and behave like everyone else comes from the trainees themselves and not from some conscience effort on the Trainers. People who are insecure want to blend in.

You're talking about within the microcosm of the training itself. What I'm talking about is the Recovery at large, the function of the training in the Recovery culture. Not necessarily the trainees, or the trainers, but the role the training has come to play in spreading the "one culture" throughout the movement.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

(As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Please see under prayer suggestions:

http://churchinbellevue.org/wp-conte..._8-14-2011.pdf