The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders

[Indiana]

The LC leader continues. (He is considered a blending brother (on the longer list because geographically he was not close to WL as the short list BBs were in Anaheim).

Here he goes, bringing up JI again in ignorant fashion.


I CAN TELL YOU HAVE A CERTAIN MINDSET AND I THINK I HAVE SAID ALL I NEED TO SAY.

LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER

I HAVEN’T TALKED TO THEM BECAUSE I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO...BECAUSE THOSE BROS HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED, DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? LET’S LOOK THAT UP IN THE DICTIONARY RIGHT NOW. DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? THE CONCLUSION HAD BEEN DRAWN BY 45 CHURCHES AND A NUMBER OF BROS IN THE SOUTHERN CAL CHURCHES THAT JOHN INGALLS HAS POISONED AND THOSE WHO WERE WITH HIM, SUCH AS, JOHN SMITH,..BILL F CONDEMNED ALL THESE BROS FOR BLASTING BLEE, PUBLICLY IN SCOTTSDALE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGAINST BLEE AND AGAINST THIS MINISTRY. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE WAY THEY ARE DOING IT BE A GENTLEMAN AND JUST PULL AWAY.DO WHAT SUITS YOUR HEART..THAT’S WHAT BILL DID..JOHN AND THOSE BROS ARE IN TROUBLE FROM THE GET GO

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The LC leader continues. (He is considered a blending brother (on the longer list because geographically he was not close to WL as the short list BBs were in Anaheim).

Here he goes, bringing up JI again in ignorant fashion.


I CAN TELL YOU HAVE A CERTAIN MINDSET AND I THINK I HAVE SAID ALL I NEED TO SAY.

LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER

I HAVEN’T TALKED TO THEM BECAUSE I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO...BECAUSE THOSE BROS HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED, DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? LET’S LOOK THAT UP IN THE DICTIONARY RIGHT NOW. DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? THE CONCLUSION HAD BEEN DRAWN BY 45 CHURCHES AND A NUMBER OF BROS IN THE SOUTHERN CAL CHURCHES THAT JOHN INGALLS HAS POISONED AND THOSE WHO WERE WITH HIM, SUCH AS, JOHN SMITH,..BILL F CONDEMNED ALL THESE BROS FOR BLASTING BLEE, PUBLICLY IN SCOTTSDALE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGAINST BLEE AND AGAINST THIS MINISTRY. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE WAY THEY ARE DOING IT BE A GENTLEMAN AND JUST PULL AWAY.DO WHAT SUITS YOUR HEART..THAT’S WHAT BILL DID..JOHN AND THOSE BROS ARE IN TROUBLE FROM THE GET GO

Well, I for one am finding this very enlightening. I think this definitely lends credence to those that argue that the LRC is a cult. I would think this would give the DCP pause, do they really want these posts looked at by a judge in a courtroom?

[Indiana]

WL: Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

John Ingalls shares too about that same meeting –

On the evening of Monday, December 14, 1987, Brother Lee called a meeting of the elders of Southern California. There was a fair number there representing most of the churches in the area. After prayer, Brother Lee opened the fellowship by giving a long word concerning the new way and its great success in Taiwan. Then he asked for fellowship from the brothers, desiring especially to know how successful the new way had been in their locality. Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him.

We were not the only ones who went to Brother Lee with our concerns during these days. We heard that Dan Towle, individually, and Frank Scavo together with Dick Taylor also went to see Brother Lee to express to him their concerns about the present situation. (p. 103)

Witness Lee on the same meeting:
Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

This was Brother Lee’s reaction to brothers who shared from their heart about serious problems in their localities. He gave the impression that his own objectives were more important than listening to the Body and to the concerns of responsible elders for their localities. These speakings by Dick Taylor, John Smith, and others were from their own experience and had not been influenced by John Ingalls.

Contrary to official assertions, John Ingalls had both legitimate and genuine concerns that he presented to other brothers for fellowship. If the concerns did not exist in the recovery, there would have been no need for John to make special contact with the brothers. What was interpreted as a “poisoning” was simply the elders responding to concerns for the saints, as morale began to sink and divisions began to develop. John Ingalls was not responsible for this. Throughout the recovery, brothers shared many of the same concerns. John Ingalls was faithful to address those concerns. Let the responsibility for the troubles in Rosemead, San Diego, and so forth lie with its source in Anaheim and in Irving, with the tandem leadership of Lee & son, and with LSM.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Indiana

WL: Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

John Ingalls shares too about that same meeting –

On the evening of Monday, December 14, 1987, Brother Lee called a meeting of the elders of Southern California. There was a fair number there representing most of the churches in the area. After prayer, Brother Lee opened the fellowship by giving a long word concerning the new way and its great success in Taiwan. Then he asked for fellowship from the brothers, desiring especially to know how successful the new way had been in their locality. Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him.

We were not the only ones who went to Brother Lee with our concerns during these days. We heard that Dan Towle, individually, and Frank Scavo together with Dick Taylor also went to see Brother Lee to express to him their concerns about the present situation. (p. 103)

Witness Lee on the same meeting:
Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

This was Brother Lee’s reaction to brothers who shared from their heart about serious problems in their localities. He gave the impression that his own objectives were more important than listening to the Body and to the concerns of responsible elders for their localities. These speakings by Dick Taylor, John Smith, and others were from their own experience and had not been influenced by John Ingalls.

Contrary to official assertions, John Ingalls had both legitimate and genuine concerns that he presented to other brothers for fellowship. If the concerns did not exist in the recovery, there would have been no need for John to make special contact with the brothers. What was interpreted as a “poisoning” was simply the elders responding to concerns for the saints, as morale began to sink and divisions began to develop. John Ingalls was not responsible for this. Throughout the recovery, brothers shared many of the same concerns. John Ingalls was faithful to address those concerns. Let the responsibility for the troubles in Rosemead, San Diego, and so forth lie with its source in Anaheim and in Irving, with the tandem leadership of Lee & son, and with LSM.

Jesus is the faithful and true witness. I find it very ironic that the same group that drives people out of their little group for sharing faithfully the truth is the same group talking about “seeing the light”. Something else that is clear is that the works in the LRC are luke warm. No doubt, the “new way” was an attempt to remedy this, but look at the unanimous rejection by saints to preach the gospel. This is supposed to be the leaders of the entire LRC sitting around in this meeting and it is so wretched and miserable. WL is whining about someone pouring cold water on him for speaking the truth? What about prayer, what about fellowship? No, they choose to scapegoat those that were faithful and true witnesses! And this is the group that talks about “poor” Christianity? This is the group that tells everyone else they are blind and need the light? I think when they appear before the Lord’s judgement seat they will be naked. I hope that all of us posting on this forum have repented of this group. I think we all need to open up to Jesus, the Amen. We often hope that the road will be short, quick and painless, but if not, so be it. The second thing I learn from this is to hold onto Jesus the faithful and true witness. So what if you get railroaded out of this pathetic excuse for God’s embassy on Earth. At least you will still be holding onto Jesus. Finally, a word of hope, Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, not WL, not WN, not the LRC. If God is going to call something into being it will be through Jesus.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER

This ties back into an article from PriestlyScribe's website. The name of the article is Group Think: A Sinister Snare for Elders and Congregations Alike

http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...tionsAlike.pdf

Light meaning, "Steve, you need to adopt our concepts as your own". The brother has taken out of context what light is. Light is not group think. God is light.
1 John 1:5-10
"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

This brother mentioned the body will reject what Steve is thinking. Once again the body is taken out of context. His thinking is LSM local churches=the Body of Christ. Just like the former Exclusive Brethren brother I spent time with, EB's as with the LSM/LC think they have the pulse of the Body. Not so. The Body of Christ is far more broad and expansive than the LSM brand or the Exclusive Brethren brand. The Body includes Christians meeting in non-denominations, denominations, home fellowships, etc. If Steve's concepts are wrong and to be rejected by the Body of Christ, this brother would have gone next door to the Presbyterian congregation to gain their rejection of Steve.
Go back and read 1 Corinthians 12 & 13. Even if I disagreed what Steve is thinking, OBW, Ohio, Znp, Awareness, and so forth, they are still members of the Body. Because I am part of the Body, I cannot say to them or any other member of the Body, "I have no need of you".

[Indiana]

Terry's post speaks volumes to the problem this thread addresses regarding the LC. And the group-think article in the link is a great aid to the understanding of the phenomenon of a near entire group disposed to calling light darkness and darkness light.