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Old 09-26-2011, 04:12 AM   #1
ZNPaaneah
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Default Re: A Word of Love

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Why can't you refer to the individual as a person instead of "a contact"? Question for you ZnPaaneah. What is the objective when preaching the gospel; to preach the gospel to bring the Lord to someone, or preaching the gospel with the intent of bringing them into a specifc church?
If the intent of preaching the gosepl is to bring someone into a specific church, I'd say there's ulterior motive.
I did the math. The most successful FTTT trainees at bringing gospel contacts brought less than 1% of those they preached the gospel to meetings. That % was also true of DC in Houston prior to the FTTT.

So, the group I was in had several thousand gospel contacts over the course of one year. If you enjoy what you are doing it is not about bringing people to meetings. Since we are all laboring in the gospel it makes perfect sense that we would fellowship with one another. If I met someone the night before named "Tom" I am not going to refer to him as "Tom" because that would confuse everyone, they would think this must be a Tom that I know. So I need a nice easy way to identify him so that everyone can follow the testimony. How is this "smarmy"?
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:47 AM   #2
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I did the math. The most successful FTTT trainees at bringing gospel contacts brought less than 1% of those they preached the gospel to meetings. That % was also true of DC in Houston prior to the FTTT.
I've never liked or used the word 'contact' when referring to someone I shared the gospel with.

I'm not a sales person but I know the the word 'contact' is often used to refer to someone who is a potential client in SALES. The LC used that word 'contact' to refer to people who they thought were good enough to bring into the LR. They wanted to 'capture' people for the 'church'. The church seems to be more important to Christ. (not only in the LC but through out the Christian institution. Everyone wants to build 'mega churches'.)

That's why I don't like using the word- contact-. I always refer to the person I shared the gospel with as "someone". "I talked to -someone- today about the Lord." "I met a person who was very hungry for the Truth and I got to share with him/her how Jesus IS the Way, the TRUTH and the Life."

I also don't like inviting people to go to 'church'. If I'm having or going to a fellowship / prayer meeting/gathering, I may invite the person I met to attend the gathering.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:10 AM   #3
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They wanted to 'capture' people for the 'church'..
I remember in the C. in Fort Lauderdale the elders had us all form into groups of 6. The purpose of the groups was to work together on any new ones that showed in the church meetings, especially at the Love Feast meetings. We were to lurch on them like vultures.

And yes, the purpose of this method, as stated, of forming smaller groups was, to bring them into the local church. Of course ....

And we didn't think there was anything wrong with it ... tho deep down I thought there was something repugnant about it ... as it struck me as manhandling and not Spirithandling ....
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:09 AM   #4
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I remember in the C. in Fort Lauderdale the elders had us all form into groups of 6. The purpose of the groups was to work together on any new ones that showed in the church meetings, especially at the Love Feast meetings. We were to lurch on them like vultures.

And yes, the purpose of this method, as stated, of forming smaller groups was, to bring them into the local church. Of course ....

And we didn't think there was anything wrong with it ... tho deep down I thought there was something repugnant about it ... as it struck me as manhandling and not Spirithandling ....
"Lurch on them" is a strange practice that I have never heard of.

As for your C in Ft. Lauderdale practice I will hazard a guess, based on my experience, that it was not very successful.

Let me share an experience that was very helpful to me. As a kid I was in the boy scouts. My first patrol leader lived a block from my house. Once a week I would go to his house, the patrol would play games in his backyard and he would work with us in small groups helping us to get Tenderfoot, and other badges. It was fun, I learned something, and his patrol was the "premier patrol" in the troop. The next patrol I was in, the patrol leader met everyone in his basement and schemed how his patrol would be "the number 1 patrol". He then broke into his little click with his two friends and the patrol was a joke.

So when I became a patrol leader I fashioned my patrol after the first leader. We never discussed the awards, just focused on having fun and helping the kids that needed help. The first two terms we won the premier patrol at the end of the year, but it was not an award that I took seriously. The next year my father was roped into being the Troop Leader. My best friend was made Senior Patrol leader of the troop. I decided to stay as a Patrol leader since I felt it would help my dad the most. Before our first troop meeting my dad called a meeting of the patrol leaders. (Unbeknownst to me parents had been complaining that the whole thing was rigged for me to win again). He sat us in a circle and asked the first patrol leader to list two kids in his patrol he didn't want, he did that with the next and the next, he skipped me and went back to the first and asked him to choose two kids from my patrol, and he did that with the next and the next. The 8 kids he had written down were my patrol.

What bothered me about this was that one of the patrol leaders, his younger brother was one of the rejects. (This was idiotic, this kid had been in my patrol and had won the premier scout award, now his younger brother is a reject? By the way, these were the two kids whose father had parkinson's disease.) So I knew that this kid would go home and tell his younger brother he was a reject. To top it off, my mom was burnt out with boyscouts and she told me her only request is that there were to be no patrol meetings at my house. These kids are going to show up, learn that they were rejects and then on top of that learn my mom doesn't want them at our house.

So, we break into patrols and sure enough this kid (whose older brother was in that meeting) looks around and says "it looks like they gave you all the losers". Everyone is silent and looking at me. I tell him "Who told you that you were a loser?" (Obviously his brother, who had won premier scout the year before. Also, the way I said it was saying "I am not a loser"). That was it, then they started arguing over "can we have a patrol meeting at my house". That was an answer to my prayers, I told them we would share equally, whoever wants the patrol meetings at their house, and to make it even better, I would wave meetings at my house.

We never spoke another word about any of this. However, the last week of the year I had a kid who was in second place on the point total. He was on the last hike with the kid who was in first place. I cut a deal with the scribe that if this kid built a shelter and slept in it then he would get enough extra points to move into first place.

So, once again, at the end of the year, our patrol had won and we also had the kid who won the top individual honors. For the first time, I saw the parents of some of my kids show up to the picnic.

Sure, you have elders like those in the c in Florida, etc. But it is an ineffective approach. If you like what you are doing and enjoy it, so will others.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:43 AM   #5
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I've never liked or used the word 'contact' when referring to someone I shared the gospel with.

I'm not a sales person but I know the the word 'contact' is often used to refer to someone who is a potential client in SALES. The LC used that word 'contact' to refer to people who they thought were good enough to bring into the LR. They wanted to 'capture' people for the 'church'. The church seems to be more important to Christ. (not only in the LC but through out the Christian institution. Everyone wants to build 'mega churches'.)

That's why I don't like using the word- contact-. I always refer to the person I shared the gospel with as "someone". "I talked to -someone- today about the Lord." "I met a person who was very hungry for the Truth and I got to share with him/her how Jesus IS the Way, the TRUTH and the Life."

I also don't like inviting people to go to 'church'. If I'm having or going to a fellowship / prayer meeting/gathering, I may invite the person I met to attend the gathering.
I agree with all of this. I don't think I ever invited someone to a church meeting while in the FTTT. We had a bible study on campus and we invited people to that, and once it got started it was by word of mouth. This was a Bible study I started and was composed exclusively of people I and my team had preached the gospel to. It was not a LRC meeting. I coordinated with a sister, she would show up at the end of the Bible study and those who were hanging around and wanted more fellowship she would take to a home meeting, I had to go to work. From that home meeting some would then go to the meetings.

But at night I would sleep in a room with about 12 foreigners who were all involved in the gospel work during the day. If someone talked about "a gospel contact" I understood that they were referring to someone that I had never met, and someone that they had preached the gospel to and was interested in fellowship. That conveyed more information than saying "a student at school" or something else. Saying the persons name would just be confusing because I would assume I should know the person by name.

So if your gospel involves people at work, perhaps people you have already fellowshipped about and prayed corporately about, then sure, the term "gospel contact" is a turn off. But if your labor involves about 10 new gospel contacts a day, it is a useful term.
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Old 09-26-2011, 09:14 AM   #6
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I did the math. The most successful FTTT trainees at bringing gospel contacts brought less than 1% of those they preached the gospel to meetings. That % was also true of DC in Houston prior to the FTTT.
The goal as I had heard was to bring an increase to the churches. The gospelizing on Taiwan was considered to be unsuccessful if there was not an increase. Same can be said for the door knocking in North America.
The real measurable should not be who was added to the church, but how many received the Lord and were baptized. Even with those that heard the gospel, but did not admit, believe, and confess; a seed was planted.
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Old 09-26-2011, 09:29 AM   #7
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The goal as I had heard was to bring an increase to the churches. The gospelizing on Taiwan was considered to be unsuccessful if there was not an increase. Same can be said for the door knocking in North America.
The real measurable should not be who was added to the church, but how many received the Lord and were baptized. Even with those that heard the gospel, but did not admit, believe, and confess; a seed was planted.
The people that judged it was unsuccessful were not people that I would trust their judgement. Also, those that set the goal to increase the church membership were not those that I felt should be setting the goals.

I think if they had done a better job in those two capacities you would see that we were very successful at evangelizing and also at building the church.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:19 AM   #8
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I wanted to add something to the previous post. What those running the FTTT and sponsoring the FTTT didn't realize (but should have) is that results grow exponentially. If you focus on evangelizing and growth of the evangelists, then you will see, over time the church being built as well.

In the first year they were very upset that they had great results evangelizing, but didn't see any benefit in the church in Taipei. So the focus in the second year turned to seeing results in the churches. To that goal we were given complete liberty. I have shared in detail (I think it was on this forum, but if it was on the other forum I'll go over what I shared again). Our group was very successful. In a matter of months (Technically from December to April, but in reality you should count it as 4 months) we had 18 brothers from a graduate school in engineering come into the meetings of the church in Taipei. This was the result of 3 Full time trainees and 1 sister affiliated with the church in Taipei laboring and coordinating together.

To be fair you would not expect all groups to have this kind of success, we had one of the trainers, the brother that had had the greatest success in door knocking, a chinese sister that also had very high numbers, and I was very experienced in the gospel before coming to Taiwan. The other sister we had was not experienced in door knocking nor in the gospel, but she was clearly gifted at shepherding and very savvy at getting other saints to make up any deficiency she had.

But here is what could have happened once they had a successful model. We could have easily identified 3 other groups that were ready and over the course of a month trained them. So we could have trained 9 others per month, or 100 trainees a year. Second, you need to group the trainees so that each group has at least one experienced brother. About 4-6 months would have been sufficient to train many if not most saints and then let them return to the churches. Finally, realistic numbers would be about 1/100 of those that receive the gospel will want further fellowship. If you run a Bible study or home meeting about half of those that come will then want to come to the church meeting. That is 1/2 of 1%. A team of full time workers should be able to preach the gospel 10 times a night (at a campus), of that about 5 of those times should result in someone receiving the gospel. Therefore, about once a month you will actually meet someone who wants to come for further fellowship. Of those about half will actually come into the meeting. If you are diligent at laboring at the end of the year a team of 3 may have added 6 to the church. If you labor in campuses it is very likely that a large number of these may wish to actually spend a year as a trainee. Therefore, although the numbers are much, much less than the ridiculous projections put forth back in 1987 by ignorant and foolish prognosticators, even so, exponential growth is not unrealistic. And if you understand that as well as Warren Buffet does, then you know it is possible to evangelize the whole world.

So these estimates are for your average group of three saints that are diligent, not necessarily gifted.
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:01 PM   #9
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Our group was very successful. In a matter of months (Technically from December to April, but in reality you should count it as 4 months) we had 18 brothers from a graduate school in engineering come into the meetings of the church in Taipei. This was the result of 3 Full time trainees and 1 sister affiliated with the church in Taipei laboring and coordinating together.
Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?

(Trust me...I'm all for education and a sound mind is easier to work with than that of a drug burned out mind.)
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:28 PM   #10
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Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?

(Trust me...I'm all for education and a sound mind is easier to work with than that of a drug burned out mind.)
We were assigned a campus that was a graduate school. Every gospel group was assigned a territory
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:17 PM   #11
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Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?

(Trust me...I'm all for education and a sound mind is easier to work with than that of a drug burned out mind.)
Let me give a little more detailed response to this. Our gospel group was unlike all the others in that we did not go out as a group of three. All the other groups had at least one male and one female and a third member going out together. Because we were in an all male campus the one brother could go by himself through the dorms at night. Since he worked during the day training the other trainees this was ideal for him. He had done campus work at UT Austin and was extremely successful with the door knocking in Taiwan, so my attitude was let him loose. He doesn't need anyone with him. As it turned out, our converts would join him and lead him through the halls.

I don't know if you have done much door knocking, but spending 4 hours and struggling to get anyone to answer the door, much less listen to you is very tough sledding, whereas walking through a college campus dorm where everyone wants to test their english skills by talking to the American is as smooth sailing as you can get. I had primed the pump, but he kept a steady stream of new converts coming to my Bible study every day.

2nd, we were using a room on campus for our Bible study / English class and this was approved by the Campus. This makes it very easy for the new converts from the night before to show up. Within a few weeks we had standing room only in a room that can seat more than 30.

3rd, the campus is within walking distance of the hall and homes where the home meetings were.

This is just like fishing, you find a good spot and go to town.

I wanted to make my meetings as interesting, thought provoking and controversial as possible. Some people were there to debate, some were there to practice english, and some were there because they were seeking. As a result, when the meeting was over they wanted more, they wanted to fellowship, not debate, not even practice english. So going to a home meeting that was run by the Local chinese in Taipei was ideal. So, the sister would take these brothers to that meeting.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:45 PM   #12
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I don't know if you have done much door knocking, but spending 4 hours and struggling to get anyone to answer the door, much less listen to you is very tough sledding, whereas walking through a college campus dorm where everyone wants to test their english skills by talking to the American is as smooth sailing as you can get. I had primed the pump, but he kept a steady stream of new converts coming to my Bible study every day.

2nd, we were using a room on campus for our Bible study / English class and this was approved by the Campus. This makes it very easy for the new converts from the night before to show up. Within a few weeks we had standing room only in a room that can seat more than 30.

3rd, the campus is within walking distance of the hall and homes where the home meetings were.

This is just like fishing, you find a good spot and go to town.
First off,
Thanks for the trip down memory lane ZNP. When I first got saved, through the LC, we would go door knocking on Thursday evenings and again on Saturday afternoons inviting people to the gospel/love feasts. We'd go in groups of 3. We'd go house to house door knocking, college dorm door knocking and because we had a naval base near by, we'd also go to the Navy base. This was in 1975. San Diego was also a 'young people's church'. The majority of the saints in 1975 were single and in their early 20s. We were energized and on fire for Christ " & the church". (It was a good place to be at the time.)

Fast forward to 1977/78, the focus shifted pretty much to campus work only and the meetings were focused in the homes. What I did not like about the home meetings is people were assigned homes in where to meet for practical reasons. But if you liked being around certain saints who were not in your neighborhood, I would not be seeing them hardly at all. We would meet 'corporately' once a month. By then the 'love feasts' were over too..which I loved. The only problem w/the love feasts was the testimonies of the saints on how they got saved became repititious and stale.

When I 'rebelled' and ventured out on my own, I maintained my relationship w/the Lord. So as I made friends, I'd tell them about the Lord. Some got saved. Some did not. Some remained my friends both saved and not. Others drifted away both saved & not.

Such is life.
Reminds me of Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the Word of our God stands forever.”
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:49 PM   #13
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Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?

(Trust me...I'm all for education and a sound mind is easier to work with than that of a drug burned out mind.)
In the last two posts I was referring to your reference to "good material", but now let me address the issue of success.

As it turns out, what the LSM was looking for was a magic formula that involves something they could package and sell. The brother preaching the gospel didn't need anything. I also didn't need anything. The sister taking the brothers to the home meetings said she needed help with home meetings. So, LSM came out with a set of books on messages for home meetings.

So, this would have been a lot more successful if it resulted in selling more books for the LSM.

Instead, what it needed was labor and patience. We weren't interested in trying to sell books. Hence, not something the LSM was much interested in.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:35 AM   #14
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Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?
CMW, you mentioned what had been on my mind last night and into the morning; "good material".
What is good material and who is good material? Is this a term relegated to men and women enrolled in universities? What about men and women who choose to enlist in the armed forces? What about men and women who choose to work in supermarkets? What men and women who choose labor trades as their career?
Since the churches have chosen to emphasize the campus work, how come in the campus work, the emphasis is on college freshmen?
As I have been saying along in posts and on other threads, the recovery has become specialized and gone away from being general. In order for local churches to be truly a local church, there has to be generality.
Question I had is since there's such an emphasis on campus work, why can't middle school and high school students start their own Christian clubs in their schools? Surely the ACLU would protest, but it's the students starting the clubs. This would be my answer to why focus on college campuses for good material? Why limit yourselves to the college campuses? When there's much more good material in the middle schools and in high schools.
When I drop my two eldest children at their Thursday night Youth Ministry which covers middle school and high school students, there is easily 20-30 students or more on a weekly basis. If this is just one congregation within my locality, how many more are out there?
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:50 AM   #15
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CMW, you mentioned what had been on my mind last night and into the morning; "good material".
What is good material and who is good material? Is this a term relegated to men and women enrolled in universities? What about men and women who choose to enlist in the armed forces? What about men and women who choose to work in supermarkets? What men and women who choose labor trades as their career?
Since the churches have chosen to emphasize the campus work, how come in the campus work, the emphasis is on college freshmen?
As I have been saying along in posts and on other threads, the recovery has become specialized and gone away from being general. In order for local churches to be truly a local church, there has to be generality.
Question I had is since there's such an emphasis on campus work, why can't middle school and high school students start their own Christian clubs in their schools? Surely the ACLU would protest, but it's the students starting the clubs. This would be my answer to why focus on college campuses for good material? Why limit yourselves to the college campuses? When there's much more good material in the middle schools and in high schools.
When I drop my two eldest children at their Thursday night Youth Ministry which covers middle school and high school students, there is easily 20-30 students or more on a weekly basis. If this is just one congregation within my locality, how many more are out there?
Some comments. Campus work in high school and middle school can be very prevailing, but almost always and exclusively if run by a student in school. It is a very thorny issue for a teacher to get involved. You could have a young peoples work at a church and then have the kids go out and evangelize their school. But it would almost always have to be student run and directed. Also, since these kids will graduate and move on this would make this a very ephemeral ministry.
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