Can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sins?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP,
So we can judge Witness Lee as a false apostle, but we've crossed the line when we question if he is a true servant of God? I see a disconnect here. Please explain the difference between the two and how it applies to our discussions.

I don't believe that your "purge out the old leaven" example is relevant to our discussions regarding Witness Lee, who claimed to be the sole person on earth speaking as God's oracle. The example you give from 1st Corinthians is regarding "a brother" in one particular local church. Again there is a disconnect. Should people look at (and yes judge) these two in the same manner?

I did not raise the example of the brother in Corinth, that was raised by OBW who pointed out that the topic of judging is very broad and cannot be covered with the verse reference I gave from James 4:11-12. Ohio also pointed out that we are called to judge certain things so it is very difficult to distinguish. I have agreed with this point that this is a matter of the word of righteousness, which according to Hebrews, is not a simple matter.

The Bible charges us to judge the prophets. We should examine the prophecies and judge those that are false. Judging a statement or action is a matter of righteousness. However, we are not called to judge the person. The verse in James is very clear on this -- 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Paul also expresses the same sentiment when he says "who are you to judge another man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls".

Jesus also covers this when he says "Judge not lest you be judged for with what judgment you judge you shall be judged". This verse is probably handled more carelessly than any other verse in the Bible. First, this is not a prohibition against judging sin because we will be judged if we sin regardless of whether or not we judge sin. Also, not judging sin can also be a sin as some have pointed out concerning LSM and WL. Likewise this does not refer to choosing something, for example where to meet, since that would violate man's free will. What we are prohibited from doing is judging someone else. If I judge that WL was "not a true servant" then will I also be judged in the same way? If I argue that I have the right to say this because America is a free country, then won't I be judged for condemning WL for suing Christians since that also was his right as an American?

So there are two issues here: which principle is correct "Americans have the right to sue" or "Christians should not sue other Christians but rather choose to suffer loss"? To discuss this is a matter of righteousness. But to then take this to the next step and say because WL violated this or that principle therefore he was not a "true servant of God". That, to my understanding, is what Jesus prohibited, that is what James prohibited and that is what Paul prohibited. I have looked and so far I do not see any example in the NT where that line was crossed. That said, there are areas where they seemed to have walked right up to that line.

[Cal]

Judge has several meanings. Obviously when Jesus praised the church in Ephesus which had "put to the test" or "tried" those who call themselves apostles He was implying they had performed a kind of judgment.

We cannot dispense the final judgment on anyone. But to make any decision one renders a judgment in the broad sense.

I cannot judge anyone's heart as the Lord can. But I do have the right and even responsibility to decide whether I think someone is teaching truth.

I cannot judge Lee as a man, but I can come to some conclusion about his quality as a teacher and leader. Whether one calls that "judgment" or not is secondary. The fact is it does and must happen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Judge has several meanings. I cannot judge anyone's heart as the Lord can. But I do have the right and even responsibility to decide whether I think someone is teaching truth.

Some random thoughts ...

Judges in our judicial system don't even like to refer to themselves as "I am the judge here," instead they prefer to use the phrase "this court ..." Judges can only judge actions. Only the Lord can judge the hearts of man. Judges cannot make law, rather they interpret the law and apply it. The true Judge has made the law, and has assigned men on earth to apply it.

We as Christians must discern the teachings and actions of others. Many of us in the LC's put far more trust in our LC leaders that we should have, believing that they were governed singularly by the scriptural mandate "to give account of your soul." I have witnessed and heard stories of elders being publicly chastised for placing the care of their flock above the demands of LC workers, both in Anaheim and Cleveland.

One area where posters can "cross the line" as ZNP has recently stated, is to heap condemnation on WL or other leaders. Courts have jurors that determine guilt, witnesses to reveal the facts, and counselors to establish the facts, but none of these assigns judgment. In this sense, posters can be witnesses, counselors, and jurors, but not judges.

I Cor 5 is a case where it appears like Paul was judging a man for sin which was damaging the assembly. Paul assumed responsibility that should have been the elders. He even delivered the man to Satan. Later, following a time of repentance in which the sin was stopped, Paul encouraged the church to receive the offender back into fellowship.

Personally, I believe most of what the Lord was referring to when He said "judge not lest you be judged," was all those petty condemnations which arise in our heart towards others. Happened to me a million times. Most are rooted in fleshly fickle feelings and need to be taken to the cross. Included here are those gossips and backstabbing suspicions which arise from those fleshly thoughts. These also need to be deposited at the closest cross.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

...Judging a statement or action is a matter of righteousness. However, we are not called to judge the person.

I noticed you skipped over and never addressed my point about how the apostle Paul held himself out as an example, not just in his teaching, but also in IN HIS MANNER AND MODE OF LIVING, IN OTHER WORDS HIS PERSON.

This is very simple. This is not complicated. Witness Lee held himself out as "an apostle of the first order". He and his followers held him up as "THE wise master builder". He was likened as the one general with the one sounding of the trumpet for the whole earth. He did everything accept declare that he was the reincarnation of the apostle Paul (although he came close to that in that in that infamous elders meeting in 1988) This is not some little brother within a single local church who fell into sin. This man affected the lives of tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of God's people, over a half century on nearly every continent.

Witness Lee is now dead. He will face the Lord on that day just as all believers will. He will answer for all his words and actions just as all believers will. He will receive his just rewards from the Lord just as all believers will. Nothing that we say here on this public forum is going to change this, nothing that we say is going to add or detract when he stands before the Lord on that day. However………..

Witness Lee, in his wake, has left a sizable group of churches which still refer to themselves as “The Lord’s Recovery”. The leadership of this group still, to this very day, refers to Witness Lee as the one apostle with the one ministry for the age. They still, to this very day, ascribe to him the things I described above, and even worse.

The Local Church is actively and aggressively seeking new membership in their movement. I believe that people need to know about the real Witness Lee and the real history of the Local Church movement. Current and former members deserve to know. Family members of current and former members deserve to know. People, especially young people and new Christians who are being courted by current members, deserve to know. The Christian public in general deserves to know.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I noticed you skipped over and never addressed my point about how the apostle Paul held himself out as an example, not just in his teaching, but also in IN HIS MANNER AND MODE OF LIVING, IN OTHER WORDS HIS PERSON.

I did not skip this. I said that the prohibition on judging cannot refer to choosing because that would violate our free will. Imitating Paul's life and example is a matter of our choosing what is excellent. Paul also said "that it is a small thing to me if I am judged by you, I don't even judge myself, rather I am judged by the Lord".

This is a difficult discussion if we cannot clearly define the terms.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I noticed you skipped over and never addressed my point about how the apostle Paul held himself out as an example, not just in his teaching, but also in IN HIS MANNER AND MODE OF LIVING, IN OTHER WORDS HIS PERSON.

This is very simple. This is not complicated. Witness Lee held himself out as "an apostle of the first order". He and his followers held him up as "THE wise master builder". He was likened as the one general with the one sounding of the trumpet for the whole earth. He did everything accept declare that he was the reincarnation of the apostle Paul (although he came close to that in that in that infamous elders meeting in 1988) This is not some little brother within a single local church who fell into sin. This man affected the lives of tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of God's people, over a half century on nearly every continent.

Witness Lee is now dead. He will face the Lord on that day just as all believers will. He will answer for all his words and actions just as all believers will. He will receive his just rewards from the Lord just as all believers will. Nothing that we say here on this public forum is going to change this, nothing that we say is going to add or detract when he stands before the Lord on that day. However………..

Witness Lee, in his wake, has left a sizable group of churches which still refer to themselves as “The Lord’s Recovery”. The leadership of this group still, to this very day, refers to Witness Lee as the one apostle with the one ministry for the age. They still, to this very day, ascribe to him the things I described above, and even worse.

The Local Church is actively and aggressively seeking new membership in their movement. I believe that people need to know about the real Witness Lee and the real history of the Local Church movement. Current and former members deserve to know. Family members of current and former members deserve to know. People, especially young people and new Christians who are being courted by current members, deserve to know. The Christian public in general deserves to know.

I agree. That is why I have contributed to this and other forums. However, like Paul, I think we should carry out this commission by setting ourselves forth as an example, not only in teaching but also in the way we conduct ourselves. This is why I mentioned the example of Michael contending with Satan for the body of Moses. He refused to rebuke Satan directly but said "the Lord rebuke thee". Even though Satan clearly deserves to be rebuked, it is not Michael's place to do that, but the Lord's.

Likewise we also do have the position and place to contend for righteousness, but we don't have the position to judge our brother. It is that simple. Judge teachings, yes. Judge sins, yes. Judge unrighteousness, yes. Especially when you consider that one of the great errors of the LRC and WL was their willingness to judge brothers and sisters.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee is now dead. He will face the Lord on that day just as all believers will. He will answer for all his words and actions just as all believers will. He will receive his just rewards from the Lord just as all believers will. Nothing that we say here on this public forum is going to change this, nothing that we say is going to add or detract when he stands before the Lord on that day. However………..

Witness Lee, in his wake, has left a sizable group of churches which still refer to themselves as “The Lord’s Recovery”. The leadership of this group still, to this very day, refers to Witness Lee as the one apostle with the one ministry for the age. They still, to this very day, ascribe to him the things I described above, and even worse.

The Local Church is actively and aggressively seeking new membership in their movement. I believe that people need to know about the real Witness Lee and the real history of the Local Church movement. Current and former members deserve to know. Family members of current and former members deserve to know. People, especially young people and new Christians who are being courted by current members, deserve to know. The Christian public in general deserves to know.

To say that Witness Lee was not perfect is a smokescreen. Whether it is said to be a smokescreen on purpose or not is irrelevant to the fact that the statement itself veils the realities that we are faced with in the here and now.

Even the most diehard Local Churcher will readily proclaim that Witness Lee was not perfect. So? So he was not perfect. Next question. Who did he proclaim himself to be? Next question. Who do his followers proclaim that he was? How does what Lee said about himself match up with reality? How does what his followers proclaim about him match up with reality? This will get us to the heart of the matter, and this is what needs to be addressed. When faced with the unmentionable, deplorable actions of his son don't you all remember what Witness Lee said... "nobody is perfect!".

The title of the thread is not "Can you dismiss WL's ministry because he was not perfect". No sir.

Another poster made a comment that Witness Lee may have disqualified himself because he was "not clean". Of course what we get from a diehard Lee defender was "oh my God I can't believe they are now saying that Witness Lee was not saved!"

Thankful Jane can speak for herself, but the CLEAR connotation was that Witness Lee was living in an unrepentant state - As far as can be perceived from the outside this was absolutely true. The man was constantly trampling on those within and without the movement. He was caught misappropriating donated church funds on many occasions. He basically masterminded a substantial money-laundering scheme to defraud the government. He used the solicited donations of church members (some life savings) in a bungled business adventure in which everybody lost except himself and his sons.

All this, without one single apology. No apology. No repentance. Yes, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1 John 1:9) Notice the parts in bold. IF. CONFESS. SINS. IS FAITHFUL. TO CLEANSE. ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. To become clean from unrighteousness there is an IF. I don't see when and where Witness Lee completed the process.

Does this mean his entire ministry, the entire body of work, should be dismissed? No, probably not. But neither should he or his followers get a free pass to present Witness Lee as something he was not. Neither should they get a free pass to present his ministry as something that it was not.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The title of the thread is not "Can you dismiss WL's ministry because he was not perfect". No sir.

This is my conclusion to the matter.

WL and PL should have been subjected to a Whistler like tribunal for their actions. Some of PL's actions actions also warranted a 911 call. Whether they then repented or not would decide how many saints or churches would still receive his ministry. At least the facts would be made public, as they well should be.

I personally believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, can restore any brother back to fellowship with God, but repentance and cleansing may not restore their ministry. Restoration of the person and restoration of his work are separate matters.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To say that Witness Lee was not perfect is a smokescreen. Whether it is said to be a smokescreen on purpose or not is irrelevant to the fact that the statement itself veils the realities that we are faced with in the here and now.

Even the most diehard Local Churcher will readily proclaim that Witness Lee was not perfect. So? So he was not perfect. Next question. Who did he proclaim himself to be? Next question. Who do his followers proclaim that he was? How does what Lee said about himself match up with reality? How does what his followers proclaim about him match up with reality? This will get us to the heart of the matter, and this is what needs to be addressed. When faced with the unmentionable, deplorable actions of his son don't you all remember what Witness Lee said... "nobody is perfect!".

The title of the thread is not "Can you dismiss WL's ministry because he was not perfect". No sir.

Another poster made a comment that Witness Lee may have disqualified himself because he was "not clean". Of course what we get from a diehard Lee defender was "oh my God I can't believe they are now saying that Witness Lee was not saved!"

Thankful Jane can speak for herself, but the CLEAR connotation was that Witness Lee was living in an unrepentant state - As far as can be perceived from the outside this was absolutely true. The man was constantly trampling on those within and without the movement. He was caught misappropriating donated church funds on many occasions. He basically masterminded a substantial money-laundering scheme to defraud the government. He used the solicited donations of church members (some life savings) in a bungled business adventure in which everybody lost except himself and his sons.

All this, without one single apology. No apology. No repentance. Yes, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1 John 1:9) Notice the parts in bold. IF. CONFESS. SINS. IS FAITHFUL. TO CLEANSE. ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. To become clean from unrighteousness there is an IF. I don't see when and where Witness Lee completed the process.

Does this mean his entire ministry, the entire body of work, should be dismissed? No, probably not. But neither should he or his followers get a free pass to present Witness Lee as something he was not. Neither should they get a free pass to present his ministry as something that it was not. [/COLOR]

Let us consider an example I think that we can all agree on. David's sin was heinous, and after committing that sin there was a moment prior to the prophet coming to speak to him before he repented. However, before that sin he had done great works of faith, he had written a number of psalms that became part of the Bible. So the question is this, did the sin that David committed somehow annul his works of faith, perhaps put them into suspended animation, until he repented? I don't think so. I think what the Bible records is that "we have this treasure in earthen vessels". On the one hand David can write wonderful psalms and do great deeds, and then the very next day he can do a horrible sin, and it doesn't annul anything. When he was doing great deeds of faith he was a man of flesh. I think Igzy alluded to this when he said he thought it was sovereign that all of these great holy men of faith committed sins that were recorded so that we would realize they were all men of flesh.

So in the same way you cannot dismiss WL's work because "he was not clean" but that principle doesn't apply to others because they repented. There is no basis to say that if someone sins all previous works are dismissed. We are all well aware of WL's sins, failings and shortcomings. The question is if sinning is like hitting a "clear all" button on the computer and it wipes out everything you have ever done.

The closest I can see to this principle is that if you break a nazarite vow you have to start over. This doesn't mean that your hair doesn't grow back (your vow can be renewed) as in the case of Samson, nor does it mean that everything Samson had done previously was voided, it merely means that vow that he had was broken and he had to start again.

[UntoHim]

ZNP,
I really wish you would stop comparing Witness Lee to David. Don't you realize how silly it sounds? Why are you comparing somebody who was anointed King of Israel, a man that God Himself proclaimed to be "a man after my own heart", a man who God saw fit to place him in the lineage of the Lord Jesus, with some self-proclaimed apostle wannabe? And then you make matters worse by implying that Lee's writings are to be compared to the Psalms. It really makes you look silly and thoughtless, not to mention it's a little disconcerting, that after all that we know about Witness Lee, that you would still want to hold him up on such a pedestal.

Witness Lee (and us) are living in a completely different age then the Old Testament characters. God has given us more. He expects more. Especially from the leaders. The standard for God's testimony has risen. The stakes are higher. Unless you are a Jew you are not born as one of God's people. You must accept the Gospel in order to enter God's Kingdom. If we, as God's latter day people, fail to proclaim this Gospel, and fail to live our lives as citizens of His Kingdom, in many respects we have failed God. This is especially true of Christian leaders. How much the more for a leader of an entire movement. The standard is even higher. The stakes are even higher.

Did the public let Jim Bakker give the old "Oh David sinned and got away with it so...." excuse? Nah, he ended up in the gray bar hotel. Did the public let Ted Haggard off the hook just cause he had a vibrant megachurch and the ear of the President of the US? No Sir. These men sinned against their wifes, familys and God's people, and tried to hide it for a long time. They were unrepentant. God gave them both lots of chances. Along the way they probably did a lot of good for a lot of people. What was the price? They both lost their ministries. And they should have.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP,
I really wish you would stop comparing Witness Lee to David.

I am referring to Post #136 in the thread on the ground of the church. In that Post the contrast with WL and David is made. Cassidy took great offense at that post interpreting it to mean that it was a slight against the blood of Christ. You, Igzy and others commented on Cassidy's post. I felt that with all of the discussion on it I needed to quote the original post.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Don't you realize how silly sounds?

Of course I realize how silly this is. OBW accuses me of things that have absolutely no substantiation, things that if Zeek or Awareness had said they would have been booted from the forum. Many post things that are clearly off topic, yet all of a sudden you seem to care less about that. You pretend that you can't distinguish that my post was quoting a critical post to this thread. A post that clearly influenced the title of this thread. You also pretend that I am comparing David to WL when in fact I am evaluating the principle that was put forth in that post. I do not use WL since it is up for discussion whether he ever even had a ministry. No one disputes that David had a ministry so I applied the principle to him, just as the poster had done. So, yes I realize how silly it is for me to post on this forum. I also realize how silly it is to treat that other post seriously.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why are you comparing somebody who was anointed King of Israel, a man that God Himself proclaimed to be "a man after my own heart", a man who God saw fit to place him in the lineage of the Lord Jesus, with some self-proclaimed apostle wannabe? And then you make matters worse by implying that Lee's writings are to be compared to the Psalms.

Ask Thankful Jane she posted it.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

It really makes you look silly and thoughtless, not to mention it's a little disconcerting, that after all that we know about Witness Lee, that you would still want to hold him up on such a pedestal.

What pedestal is that?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee (and us) are living in a completely different age then the Old Testament characters. God have given us more. He expects more. Especially from the leaders. The standard for God's testimony has risen. The stakes are higher. Unless you are a Jew you are not born as one of God's people. You must accept the Gospel in order to enter God's Kingdom. If we, as God's latter day people, fail to proclaim this Gospel, and fail to live our lives as citizens of His Kingdom, in many respects we have failed God. This is especially true of Christian leaders. How much the more for a leader of an entire movement. The standard is even higher. The stakes are even higher.

Oh, that pedestal. We usually refer to that as a soap box.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Did the public let Jim Bakker give the old "Oh David sinned and got away with it so...." excuse? Nah, he ended up in the graybar hotel. Did the public let Ted Haggard off the hook just cause he had a vibrant megachurch and the ear of the President of the US? No Sir. These men sinned against their wifes, familys and God's people, and tried to hide it for a long time. They were unrepentant. God gave them both lots of chances. Along the way they probably did a lot of good for a lot of people. What was the price? They both lost their ministries. And they should have.

All the more reason not to use them to examine a spiritual principle.

As to being thoughtless I started this thread to determine if it was worthwhile visiting this forum and I think it has been very helpful in that sense. I also think it is quite clear that there is no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here, it is indefensible, and instead you and others resort to the same kind of ridicule and slander I saw in the LRC.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am referring to Post #136 in the thread on the ground of the church. In that Post the contrast with WL and David is made. Cassidy took great offense at that post interpreting it to mean that it was a slight against the blood of Christ. You, Igzy and others commented on Cassidy's post. I felt that with all of the discussion on it I needed to quote the original post.

Please don't skip around and refer to a post made last week on another thread. If you do please go ahead a quote it so we can know the context. I went and looked and that poster was simply reacting to YOUR reference to David in the post before. Funny thing... So was I. I was referring to the reference you made to David (again) in the previous post, where you said:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Let us consider an example I think that we can all agree on. David's sin was heinous, and after committing that sin there was a moment prior to the prophet coming to speak to him before he repented.

If you really didn't mean to make a comparison between David and Witness Lee why don't you just say so. Say you really didn't mean it and let's move on.

Ask Thankful Jane she posted it.

Jane made no such comparison, in fact she did the opposite.

What pedestal is that?
Oh, that pedestal. We usually refer to that as a soap box.

Forget I mentioned it.

All the more reason not to use them to examine a spiritual principle.

Nonsensical non response. Try again.

As to being thoughtless I started this thread to determine if it was worthwhile visiting this forum and I think it has been very helpful in that sense. I also think it is quite clear that there is no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here, it is indefensible, and instead you and others resort to the same kind of ridicule and slander I saw in the LRC.

If you are going to be so non responsive, misrepresenting and misquoting at every turn, I think it may be better for you to keep your visiting at a minimum. I took your original question to be "HOW can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sin" (which is how it should have been worded), so myself and others have gone about answering your question. You don't like the answers your getting so you choose to claim "no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here". You basically asked us to judge. Some of us have.

This thread has run it's course.

ZNP, go ahead and take the last word.