Four Areas where W. Lee was Flat Wrong

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. This is your thread, you should be the one to provide the references to WL's ministry. The reference to the hymnal is weak, what number hymn was that and was it written by the saints or WL? WL wrote many hymns and published many volumes, certainly we can get a clear reference of his teaching to discuss. Let us be realistic, if you want to make a hymn about the two trees in the garden you are not going to fit "tree of knowledge of good and evil" into any song. So bad song, poor writer, but doesn't prove anything concerning WL's teaching.

You can't possibly really be this naive. Tell me you are just taking the devil's advocate's position.

No, Lee didn't write it. But Lee micromanaged everything. I'm sure he reviewed every hymn that was put in the permanent supplement. Which where this hymn is.

Second, WL was emphasizing that this was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" instead of "the apple" which was how it was misrepresented prior to WL.

The difference is "the apple" was never mentioned to make people suspicious of apples. But Lee clearly meant to take a swipe at "knowledge" and affect people's opinions about it.


My reference is Lee's book, The Tree of Life. I'll gather some quotes, but don't have it with me.

2. My point is simply that to say psychology was not useful in spiritual ministry is not as egregious 40 years ago as saying it today might be. I have heard many Christian teachers speak far worse than that.

So you are asking me for quotes, but are not going to provide any yourself?

3. Once again WL taught extensively on this point, and used many NT verses. If you want to say that his teaching is flat wrong I think you should be quoting his teaching. Also I would disagree with your assertion. I think that Jasper is a critical type in the NT of Christian transformation, and petrified wood is an excellent picture of the type of Christian transformation that WL taught. Jasper replaces the carbon of the wood molecule by molecule, even if some of the wood is rotten or corrupt. WL often used this NT example when teaching about transformation.

So you go from the picture of jasper, to petrified wood (which is not related to jasper, nor referred to in the Bible), to the process of how petrified wood is created, to arrive at a doctrine of transformation which is never alluded to lterally in the Bible? Creating doctrines from the whole cloth of type is risky. But creating one from a type which is not even in the Bible (petrified wood) is, well....

4. What you didn't do is quote WL saying that the only factors in the rapture were growth and maturity. Without a quote from WL to discuss we are not anchored anywhere and can feel free to flap in the breeze. My point was simple, Moses was an example of both faithfulness and maturity in growth, and he was also one of only two examples of rapture.

Z, I think you are just arguing to argue. Anyone who sat at the feet of Lee knows he likened the rapture to a harvest, and that the ones that matured early would be raptured early. And he also taught that if you didn't mature, you would spend time in the "dark closet" to get the growth you lacked. Everyone knows this, as do you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So you are asking me for quotes, but are not going to provide any yourself?

About Christian teachers teaching worse than this? Sure, I have sat through messages where people preach against the teaching of evolution and assert very strongly that the Earth is 6,000 years old and many other things that I consider to fly in the face of sound knowledge.

I have read Christian teaching that justified slavery in this country, though most of it predated the Civil War.

The Monkey trial is a pretty good example of what I would consider "worse than this".

These come to mind, but there are many more.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So you go from the picture of jasper, to petrified wood (which is not related to jasper, nor referred to in the Bible), to the process of how petrified wood is created, to arrive at a doctrine of transformation which is never alluded to lterally in the Bible? Creating doctrines from the whole cloth of type is risky. But creating one from a type which is not even in the Bible (petrified wood) is, well....

Petrified wood is often petrified with Jasper. Which is why the Petrified Forest in Arizona, a National Park, is also called the Jasper forest.

The apostle Paul relates our experience of transformation to that of a precious stone. The apostle John gives us 12 precious stones in the New Jerusalem and by analogy closely links them to the transformation the 12 apostles went through.

The doctrine of transformation is based on the plain word of the Apostle Paul in Corinthians. Once you have the teaching by Paul and the analogy with precious stones and you are presented with Jasper as being a prime example of a precious stone then it is perfectly reasonable to look more carefully at how Jasper is formed.

In order for wood to be petrified it must be immersed, or baptized if you prefer, into a liquid that is saturated with Jasper. Jasper is a molecule that is formed of three atoms, two oxygen and one silicon. It is a "triune" molecule, three atoms but one molecule. Silicon is the most abundant earth element comprising about 50% of the crust. It is very close to carbon in structure. Oxygen is the source of our life form on earth. Although blue green algae predated oxygen, it was oxygen in our atmosphere that began the explosion of life that separates the precambrian from our current age. Interestingly, this boundary in Earth's history is marked by a major deposition of Jasper. Oxygen can also signify the breath or wind. Therefore it is not difficult to see these three atoms typifying the three of the Triune God: The father as the source of life, the Son as being of the Earth, and the Spirit or breath of life.

What is also interesting about this molecule which is most definitely presented as having the appearance of the New Jerusalem is that it has two crystal structures, one is called "Low quartz" and the other "high quartz". To discuss the symmetry of these two crystal structures would probably not be of much interest to most, but I would argue that the symmetry is quite similar to that of the two ministries of Christ, His earthly ministry and His heavenly ministry.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Z, I think you are just arguing to argue. Anyone who sat at the feet of Lee knows he likened the rapture to a harvest, and that the ones that matured early would be raptured early. And he also taught that if you didn't mature, you would spend time in the "dark closet" to get the growth you lacked. Everyone knows this, as do you.

This is where I do get quite upset. The Bible likens the rapture to a harvest. The word tribulation is taken from the word that means sickle, an instrument for reaping the crops. Revelation talks about a first fruit and a harvest. It talks about putting in your sickle. Jesus talked about the kingdom being likened to planting seeds. John 15 likens God's work in this age to farming and running a vineyard.

Jesus also talked about some being cast out to where there would be "weaping and gnashing of teeth". WL, unlike many others, taught that those verses applied to born again Christians, not to unbelievers. He made a very compelling case. Are you now saying that those verses don't apply to genuine Christians?

WL didn't create these parables, He only commented on them.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is where I do get quite upset. The Bible likens the rapture to a harvest. The word tribulation is taken from the word that means sickle, an instrument for reaping the crops. Revelation talks about a first fruit and a harvest. It talks about putting in your sickle. Jesus talked about the kingdom being likened to planting seeds. John 15 likens God's work in this age to farming and running a vineyard.

Jesus also talked about some being cast out to where there would be "weaping and gnashing of teeth". WL, unlike many others, taught that those verses applied to born again Christians, not to unbelievers. He made a very compelling case. Are you now saying that those verses don't apply to genuine Christians?

WL didn't create these parables, He only commented on them.

Let's talk about this one later.