Comparing & Contrasting Lee,LC,LSM with Other Ministries

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am not familiar where Lee stated that his ministry was irreplaceable or that if you don't follow him you are shipwrecked, can you give me a reference?

Once it's established that there is such a thing as "the ministry of the age", and that you are the one bringing it to God's people "in this age" .... doesn't that kinda imply that your ministry is irreplaceable?

I'm sure there are many relevant references. This might not be a bad place to start --

http://www.lsm.org/uniqueNTministry/remaining7.html

I was going to include some excerpts, but I know that LSM has a rather ungracious copyright policy. So I'm going to err on the side of, er, paranoia, until maybe UntoHim will comment on quoting LSM pubs here in the forum.

I'm mostly looking at the last 3-4 sections. Witness Lee threads the needle so smoothly, all the way right up to the present leadership. He says all the churches are supposed to be identical. Now how could they be identical unless they line themselves up with the ordained ministry?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Once it's established that there is such a thing as "the ministry of the age", and that you are the one bringing it to God's people "in this age" .... doesn't that kinda imply that your ministry is irreplaceable?

I'm sure there are many relevant references. This might not be a bad place to start --

http://www.lsm.org/uniqueNTministry/remaining7.html

I was going to include some excerpts, but I know that LSM has a rather ungracious copyright policy. So I'm going to err on the side of, er, paranoia, until maybe UntoHim will comment on quoting LSM pubs here in the forum.

I'm mostly looking at the last 3-4 sections. Witness Lee threads the needle so smoothly, all the way right up to the present leadership. He says all the churches are supposed to be identical. Now how could they be identical unless they line themselves up with the ordained ministry?

LSM does not write copyright law. The purpose for copyright law is to protect the rights of those who publish to encourage them to publish while allowing their work to be quoted.

Under the "fair use" rule of copyright law, an author may make limited use of another author's work without asking permission. Fair use is based on the belief that the public is entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials for purposes of commentary and criticism.

I understand "limited use" in this case to be around 500 words. I would think anything less than 100 words is clearly "limited use" whereas anything over 500 could be seen differently by a jury. 200-500 words is a grey area in my opinion. Likewise percent of the thread would be relevant. So if a thread were say 2,000 words and only 200 were a quote from WL that also would be, in my mind, "limited use".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Once it's established that there is such a thing as "the ministry of the age", and that you are the one bringing it to God's people "in this age" .... doesn't that kinda imply that your ministry is irreplaceable?

Assuming is bad scholarship. His words have been published and made available for all to read. What I am asking for is that when someone says that WL said something as blatantly offensive as "if you don't follow me you are ship wrecked" then that should be supported with a reference. Likewise, saying that WL said "my ministry is irreplaceable" should also be supported with a reference.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I'm sure there are many relevant references. This might not be a bad place to start --

http://www.lsm.org/uniqueNTministry/remaining7.html

It probably is a good place to start, but it is not my job to provide supporting references for someone else's statement. No doubt anyone who knows of a quote that supports these statements could provide them, but ultimately the responsibility is on Igzy.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I'm sure there are many relevant references. This might not be a bad place to start --
http://www.lsm.org/uniqueNTministry remaining7.html
I was going to include some excerpts, but I know that LSM has a rather ungracious copyright policy. So I'm going to err on the side of, er, paranoia, until maybe UntoHim will comment on quoting LSM pubs here in the forum.

Here is one excerpt ray may have had in mind:
"All the churches should be identical, and those who can render the leading to all the churches are the ones who have the adequate knowledge of the teaching of God’s New Testament economy and who would pass on these teachings to the whole earth. We follow the one who is teaching and following this all-inclusive, incarnated, crucified, resurrected, and ascended Christ who is still ministering in the heavenlies for the carrying out of God’s New Testament economy. We have to follow such persons and we have to take their leading. Their leading is the proper leading for all the churches." (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 69-70, 74, Witness Lee)
(Quote is posted under the "Fair Use" guidelines - If any representative of the LSM feels this one paragraph quote is a violation of the Fair Use guidelines, they are free to contact the administrator of this website)

"All the churches should be identical"...to what? To the teaching and practices established by ONE MAN? This sounds and smells a lot like a personality cult. "We have to follow such persons"? What Lee meant here was A PARTICULAR PERSON...HIMSELF. One area where Witness Lee was flat wrong was that any churches should be identical. This is the very definition of a personality cult, and this was pointed out to Lee and his followers way back in the 70s and 80s. What was the reaction.... Sue! Sue! Sue! No thought of actually reconsidering, repenting or rethinking about saying these kind of crazy and cultish things. Just SUE! Thankfully this kind of litigious nonsense was finally put to rest when Lee and company got spanked by the Texas Supreme court. (and confirmed by the U.S. Supreme court, but not before wasting MILLIONS of dollars of the Local Church saints hard earned money)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"All the churches should be identical"...to what? To the teaching and practices established by ONE MAN? What was the reaction.... Sue! Sue! Sue! No thought of actually reconsidering, repenting or rethinking about saying these kind of crazy and cultish things. Just SUE!

Our brothers and sisters from the Great Lakes Area have testified this is what has transpired when their localities aren't identical in LSM publications only. Here in Washington state for years Spokane was one locality far from being identical. Since brother ST is now with the Lord, will Spokane be brought to lineup?
A rhetorical question, why is it so imperative churches should be identical in relation to LSM? My response for consideration is LSM is more interested in maintaining and growing their little kingdom than they are in bng "Body conscious". Think about it, if there was concern about being Body conscious, the walls would not exist as it currently does.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]
Here is one excerpt ray may have had in mind:
"All the churches should be identical, and those who can render the leading to all the churches are the ones who have the adequate knowledge of the teaching of God’s New Testament economy and who would pass on these teachings to the whole earth. We follow the one who is teaching and following this all-inclusive, incarnated, crucified, resurrected, and ascended Christ who is still ministering in the heavenlies for the carrying out of God’s New Testament economy. We have to follow such persons and we have to take their leading. Their leading is the proper leading for all the churches." (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 69-70, 74, Witness Lee)
(Quote is posted under the "Fair Use" guidelines - If any representative of the LSM feels this one paragraph quote is a violation of the Fair Use guidelines, they are free to contact the administrator of this website)

At the very least this can be interpreted to be identical to what other denominations do. The idea that "churches have to be identical" is very tenuous. It is based on the the fact that the golden lampstands are "identical". But by who's standard? No doubt, the golden lampstands in revelation were identical in God's eyes, not according to the dictates of a publishing house. Surely the letters to all of the various churches in the NT indicate that in many ways the churches were not identical.

Define identical. Does it mean their meeting hall is identical? Does it mean they all have the same number or elders? Does it mean they all have the identical meeting schedule? McDonald's does something along those lines so that customers feel they know the restaurant where ever they go. Is McDonald's the standard that the LRC is trying to achieve?

Does identical mean they "all speak the same thing". That sounds scriptural. But can anyone seriously say that Paul meant that everyone parrots the same teaching? If you want everyone reading from the same script, parroting the same words, then say so. If that is not what you mean why does every church have to receive and order books from LSM? If buying books from LSM is a requirement to be part of the LRC then the LRC by definition is a book club.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

At the very least this can be interpreted to be identical to what other denominations do.

ZNP, your post highlights the kind of doublespeak which has existed for decades at LSM. Ask a Blended, "who are the Blendeds?", and he will tell you, "those brothers who are being blended." Yet inside their little club of Blendeds, everyone knows full well who is the most blended, who is partially blended, and who is not blended at all.

Brothers in the GLA tried for years to get clarification on these issues. What do you mean to "all speak the same thing?" What does it mean that "all the churches must be identical?" I concluded long ago that these teachings, which seemed almost Biblical, actually were coded words which were used to control, manipulate, and intimidate the hearers. Long gone are the days when LC leaders look to the Lord for their flocks, what to teach and what to speak, what direction to lead. LSM has done that all for them.

On the surface, it would seem that LSM has created "book clubs" or fast food "franchises" with their unique brand of Christianity, but control has always been their goal. They insist that every LC must use HWFMR as their daily source book and content of all their sharing. LSM sows seeds of suspicion concerning any brother or LC that would elevate the Bible above their publications. Their adherents are willing to sue elders who dared to free them from this bondage, thinking that they do service to God.

LSM has long promoted a kind of mixed dialect. On the one hand, they have polished PR men who can speak to outsiders neutralizing their concerns about the LC's being different from the orthodoxy. On the other hand, they can use coded words to force members into complete submission or face the dangers of public shaming. They see no contradiction here. WL taught them that this dichotomy of dialect is perfectly "normal." Jesus called it hypocrisy.

[rayliotta]

Witness Lee, at the end of his ministry, specifically promoted the idea of a "new language" with a "new culture" for the Recovery. The leadership that succeeded him in Anaheim has done an excellent job in fostering this language and culture.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, your post highlights the kind of doublespeak which has existed for decades at LSM.

Yes, let's dissect the doublespeak. In the book of Revelation WL points out that it is not what makes the churches different that makes them golden lamp stands but the things they have in common. These are the same 7 things that are listed as the 7 ones in Ephesians. So far so good.

However, inherent in this teaching is the admission that the 7 churches in the book of Revelation were in fact different. So this contradicts the teaching that they all should be "identical". This cannot be deduced from the revelation, on the contrary that could refer to God's viewpoint, or the viewpoint of eternity, etc. Still at this point it is not so bad, perhaps it could be understood that the differences are not the things that make the churches glorious.

But, if you then take this teaching that "they should be identical" to impose some means of doing that, say by making everyone use LSM materials in meetings and for Bible study then you have clearly crossed a line into twisting the word. According to Ephesians the 7 things that make us one are not one publisher, or one teaching or even one "unique ministry". If this teaching is used to coerce and intimidate churches into all buying into this then you have twisted the Apostle's teaching.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, let's dissect the doublespeak.

Concerning the 7 churches in Rev 2-3, it was repeatedly said in the Recovery that their "differences were all negative," and on the positive side, they were identical. But even this was not a true observation. Ephesus was commended for their works, labor, endurance, proving the apostles, have not grown weary, and hate the works of the Nicolaitans. Smyrna was praised for enduring tribulation, poverty, and slander. Pergamos was praised for holding His name and not denying His faith. Thyatira, Sardis, and Philadelphia each received unique praises. It seems only Laodicea was not commended for anything. The Lord also reveals Himself uniquely to each church. These were not random revelations of the Son of Man. Each church also had special promises extended to them for overcoming their own unique set of trials. None of these were just indiscriminate blessings from the Lord.

How then can LSM vainly believe that their weekly message from HWFMR can meet the special conditions and trials of all the LC's? No wonder these messages have become so stale and uninspired. It would be pure coincidence if this week's message actually DID meet the need of one LC! This is why the Lord sent each church epistle to the specific elders of each church.

LSM's daily system of messages to ensure "the oneness" and uniformity of churches is not too dissimilar from the Vatican's. I grew up in Catholicism, and was named after my uncle, my father's youngest brother, who was ordained a Catholic priest about the time of my birth. He later was ordained into the Order of Franciscans, OFM, which is from the Latin "Ordo Fratrum Minorum," the Order of Friars Minor. As a young boy in parochial school, I was a choir boy and altar boy fluent in the old Latin mass liturgy.

The Catholic goal for centuries was to be able to go to any Catholic church in any city in any state in any country on any continent and hear the exact same mass spoken in Latin. As a young altar boy I could have gone to any city of the world and properly assisted the local parish priest for mass in Latin, even though I could not speak a single word in his vernacular. This was the Vatican's twisted interpretation of "speak the same thing, think the same thing, all churches must be identical, etc." The mass also consisted of responses by all the participants, and was so much "better" than the protestant churches whose members sat silently listening to "one man speaking."

[Cal]

The NT does tell us to be one and "think the same thing."

It just never commands any apostles, elders or any other heirarchy to presume authorization to enforce such unity. This is wise because things like "think the same thing" can be interpreted in all kinds of ways.

The LRC missed that memo, apparently.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Concerning the 7 churches in Rev 2-3, it was repeatedly said in the Recovery that their "differences were all negative," and on the positive side, they were identical..

This strikes to the heart of the issue which is "are they short circuiting the speaking of the Lord?" Creating this uniform speaking is a way to short circuit the Lord's speaking. There are many examples in the OT of the "false prophets" all saying the same thing only to have a real prophet walk in and ruin the whole sham. Requiring that the speaking come out of a LSM publication is a non scriptural requirement. If someone tried to speak in a meeting and was told that they were out of order solely because they are not quoting from a particular LSM publication then that would be a non scriptural requirement on the saints.

From my own experience I witnesses meetings in which quoting WL was encouraged, promoted and applauded. However, it was never required and most saints, the overwhelming majority of those that spoke (based on numbers of testimonies, not numbers of minutes) did not quote WL. Of course I am not talking about the test during a training I figure that is clearly a different situation.