One Thing Witness Lee Got Flat Right

[Cal]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

For me "enjoying Christ" is just an abstraction until the question: What does this look like in application is asked and answered.

I'd also like to point out that, although the idea of enjoying Christ is a breakthrough, Lee made two errors associated with it.

The first is the saying, Just enjoy Christ.

I think that is misleading because it implies enjoying Christ is all we need to do. But the Bible charges us to do other things. So, I would say it is better to say, First, enjoy Christ.

That is, before you undertake any activity, make sure you are in a positive, joyful state. Then do whatever it is you feel to do.


The second error Lee made in regard to enjoying Christ could be summed up in the saying, Only enjoy Christ.

Lee admonished us time and time again to make Christ our sole enjoyment, and to enjoy nothing but him. This is much too strong and not biblical nor logical. Although Christ should be our leading enjoyment, the Bible says God gives us all things to enjoy. It is clear God wants us to enjoy many wholesome, human things. Family, relationships, careers and other interests, nature and so forth. (1 Tim 6:17)

So again, in regards to enjoying things, it's better to say, First, enjoy Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'd also like to point out that, although the idea of enjoying Christ is a breakthrough, Lee made two errors associated with it.

The first is the saying, Just enjoy Christ.

The word "just" -- just turns me off. How wonderful it is to encourage one another to "enjoy Christ," but add that little word "just" and the expression becomes loaded. It was never used in a vacuum, rather it became a manipulative expression to redirect attention from some important matter at hand.

That's what has turned most people off. LSM can take the best of sayings and use it for self gain. When we have responsibilities facing us, we don't dodge them and "just enjoy Christ." LSM has used this expression over the years to cover up immorality and unrighteousness, and that's why this trite saying has lost its significance.

[OBW]

I've been noting lately in all kinds of Christian contexts that people who are trying to direct us to what they think are the missing things too often go way off the rails in trying to make their case. I have griped incessantly about how Lee turned so many things into "just" this or "simply" that when it should be obvious that almost everything is much more complicated, robust, broad, etc.

And it was not just Lee that is guilty of this kind of thing.

One thing I have been grappling with lately is what to do with things said by writers/teachers who seem to have something important to discuss, but make their whole argument questionable by taking almost ridiculous stances on some things. Just about the time you get that excitement about seeing something important, the next page starts to reflect a foam-at-the-mouth bashing of everything that is not seen as absolutely in line with their position.

So you almost have to go back to what they have been saying and decide whether they actually managed to make a reasonable case in the earlier portions such that you can ignore their rants and read on to see if there is something else that is meaningful yet to come.

And I don't really like doing that. I will never suggest that anyone should just take the word of any particular teacher (or particular group of teachers). But you should trust them enough to not simply distrust them.

I've been reading a book by a guy who has made many insightful comments on the out-of-balance state of evangelicalism (as he puts himself squarely within that camp). So I expected the book to be more of the same. And to some extent it is. But, like so many others (including me) he seems better at sizing up problems than coming to solutions.

And as I was reading some of the part where his wheels were coming off, I was reminded of this forum and this particular thread.

The problem for me is that what Lee managed to actually get even sort of right no longer places him in a position of trust. He seldom spent a lot of time pointing at the right things and then later managed to get off track. It seems that his "got it rights" are so far from the center of his teachings that they keep looking to me like admissions that are necessary to keep the followers from thinking too hard about the not so right stuff.

I will agree that enjoying Jesus/Christ is right. Ignore what went wrong with it. It is true.

But, like Igzy said, it is only part. It is not the whole thing. And I know that this seems like sniping at truth, but what portion of the scripture, or just the NT, or even just the gospels, is about enjoying Christ. I don't mean how can someone rephrase something so that it can be argued that it actually is some kind of enjoyment. Or how can we argue that obedience should generate joy within us. Simply put, how much scripture clearly makes reference to enjoying Christ (with or without some lengthy training banner tack-on).

My goal is not to dismiss it, but to give it proper scope. I don't have the answer. But it is clear that "simply enjoying Christ" is not the whole of anything. It is not given as the solution to anything. And it is not the predominant thing discussed by Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, or any of the other writers.

And there aren't many metaphors after the four Gospels, so not much opportunity to say that something not even referring to Christ is "simply the enjoyment of the processed triune God as our life supply." Yet this too often what too much scripture was turned into.

There is a vast wealth of truth in scripture. It does not all distill down to "dispensing God," "enjoying Christ," or any other kind of "simply." We all need a view of the gospel that is broader than salvation or the kingdom yet to come. That is about righteousness, meekness, humility, love (for God and man), and the kingdom right now on earth. And the kingdom right now on earth should be expressed more in our daily lives than in our meeting lives. More in the way we actually live than in some hidden, spiritual "process" that will eventually fall on us as righteousness without us ever having to think about it.

I would suggest that those who are not trying to be righteous by any means will never be righteous. And if they are never righteous, then any claim of spirituality is worse than suspect.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Simply put, enjoying God is the way to experience God and walk with him, because everything about him is delightful.
To this day, I appreciate and thank Witness Lee for enlightening me with this life-changing, life-sustaining idea. That to me was his gift to us, and what made the LC so special and different

However…..

The problems come when this matter of "enjoying Christ" is attached to certain man-made teachings and practices, such as pray-reading and calling on the Lord, at least insomuch as they were made a requirement for one to enjoy Christ. alwayslearning states it well "It's more about relationship than doing things mechanically". Looking back, I can tell you that these practices became very "mechanical" to me, and I'm sure they did with many others as well. It's rather ironic...in seeking not to be "religious", these newfangled practices did become very religious. I guess this phenomenon may be more a commentary on how man will turn any fresh move of the Spirit into something religious.

I remember well the words to one of the songs...."we have found the way to live by Christ, pray his word and call his name". The problem is that these are practices established by a man and his followers, and not really tied to anything established by the Lord Jesus or the scripture writing apostles. Furthermore, there is absolutely no record of the early Christians practicing these things. While this does not necessarily make pray-reading and calling on the Lord unbiblical, it does beg the question of how any group of Christians can come along after nearly 2,000 years of Church history and proclaim “we have found the way to live by Christ”.

Now here comes the real fly in the ointment (albeit a fly the size of an elephant.…but I digress).
This matter of “enjoying Christ” was absolutely tied to a certain man and a certain ministry – the person and work of Witness Lee. As a matter of fact Lee was not shy about letting everybody know about this, even publicly declaring that he “invented this term, enjoying Christ”. (see Ingalls book Speaking The Truth in Love) The simple truth is that nothing to do with Christ, whether it be enjoying Him, experiencing Him or living by Him, should be tied to any set of man-made teachings or ministry.

The Bible is very clear. The Lord Jesus was very clear – “MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.” (Matt. 4:4) The actual words of the Bible are to be the source of our enjoyment, and not any particular method of imbibing in these words. They are to be our source of light (Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path – Psalm 119:105) They are to be our source of spiritual nourishment (see Matt. 4:4 as quoted above). As to the Name of the Lord, we are to fear it, exalt in it, honor it, glory in it, praise it, and yes even call upon it. Yet again, Witness Lee and his followers have strictly tied this biblical phrase “call upon the Lord” to the private interpretation of a man. There is absolutely no evidence (biblical or external) that this calling on the Lord was anything that was verbalized in such a manner as we see in the Local Church. In fact I would submit that there is much biblical evidence that calling on the Lord is not something that is verbalized at all. (strictly my opinion and not willing to argue about here and now)

I think once "enjoying Christ" is understood as cultivating and enjoying a relationship with Him things begin to change for the better. If we reduce it down to calling on the Lord 3 times, pray reading, etc. something is lost and it becomes boring at best.

If we reduce it even further down to ingesting Witness Lee's ministry 24/7 then we will have a seriously problem because for all intent and purposes Christ as been replaced. He has become a topic of discussion. I liken it to having my wife in the room sitting next to me but I'm paying all my attention to someone across the room giving me a description of my wife. And then I get a copy of it in print and read it everyday while ignoring my wife sitting in the same room with me. Eventually I think my wife would pack up and leave. Maybe that's why the Lord was outside knocking on the door with the Laodecians (sp).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem for me is that what Lee managed to actually get even sort of right no longer places him in a position of trust. He seldom spent a lot of time pointing at the right things and then later managed to get off track. It seems that his "got it rights" are so far from the center of his teachings that they keep looking to me like admissions that are necessary to keep the followers from thinking too hard about the not so right stuff.

I will agree that enjoying Jesus/Christ is right. Ignore what went wrong with it. It is true.

Once again, if I remember the early days in the Recovery, this saying was full of reality, and brought many of us to understand the grace of the New Testament. "Enjoying Jesus" brought us to the Spirit of reality, and that I will never dismiss. Like everything else in the Recovery, as the reality subsided, the message of "enjoying Jesus" became simply our specialized jargon.

When my wife stopped meeting with the LSMers, one of the "faithful" sisters called to check up on her. My wife was straightforward with her about worshiping elsewhere ... "but do you enjoy the Lord?" ... she retorted. Right away the manipulation started, and right away my wife became blunt with her.

That's why I say today's Recovery expression of "enjoy the Lord" is just an empty slogan at best, and at worst it has become coded words with which to manipulate others. Obviously if wifey was really enjoying the Lord, she would have remained with LSM in the first place.

[rayliotta]

When you're there, they say, the sheep know where the food is.

When you're not there, they say, the lies of the enemy.

Such a tidy package, eh? Just enjoy Christ!

[Cal]

One reason I like the idea of enjoying Christ is that it challenges one of the biggest masqueraders of all: grim-faced, religious earnestness.

You know the type. There is always a bit of suffering and martyrdom in their tone. They can usually be found calling others to "more devotion," "more sacrifice" and "more seriousness."

They are always really big on "being serious."

It's hard to find a problem with their words, and they always seem to have a bothersome point. The problem is they probably aren't themselves doing what they so soberly suggest others do. And if they are, they probably aren't happy about it. They've just decided that being a party-pooper is more spiritual that being a partier.

They've lost their joy, but not their resolve, unfortunately for the rest of us.

Jesus told us plainly not to go around like suffering martyrs*. We are supposed to be joyful, not those who make a habit of raining on everybody's parade and patting themselves on the back for doing so.

The world is full of over-earnest realists. Just check the opinion page of any daily paper. Fewer are those who are truly enjoying joy unspeakable and full of glory.

Where there is real love, real joy isn't far behind. Jesus isn't interested in our self-sacrificing drudgery.

Can I get a "Hallelujah, Amen!"?

*"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. Matt 6:16-17

[UntoHim]

Hallelujah, Amen!

Sorry Igzy, I just got back home. This was the earliest I could respond.

“grimm-faced, religious earnestness”….say that three times real fast!

Something that Witness Lee was also “flat right” about…. Christ IS versus religion. Actually a more accurate statement might be that “religion is versus Christ”. But I guess it works pretty well either way. My point would be that Christ is really not versus anything but sin and death, and he took care of both of these on the cross.

Originally Posted by Igzy

They've lost their joy, but not their resolve,

Man oh man, if anything describes religion, this is it.