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#1 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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Indiana, thank you much for your investigative reporting over the years. Can you say more about Don Hardy? I know he was an early leader in Los Angeles during the early days of the Recovery in America. He and Samuel Chang, the brother-in-law of Watchman Nee, were very close together. Don personally knew all the leading brothers in the Recovery who originated in Southern CA. He was personally close to Witness Lee and his family while they lived in Los Angeles during the days of Elden Hall. Don Hardy was an early elder, who was trusted with many responsibilities for the ministry, and later was appointed an officer of the Daystar business. He got to witness the behind the scenes operations of the ministry, formerly known as Stream Publishers. He was also supposed to keep his mouth shut about any "improprieties" as most of the other leaders had learned to do. As they say, "even when WL is wrong, he is right." That's because he was supposedly today's "Moses," who not only gave us the laws, but was himself above the law. Don saw many precious saints who were "sacrificed" in order to maintain this bigger-than-life, pristine image of Witness Lee and his ministry. All brothers and sisters were expendable, and no one was exempt, as many precious ones would later learn. Only the Lee family was immune to accusations, whether true or false.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 104
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I have a question about WL's 2 sons. Why were those incidences not reported to the police? Were things different back then? Today, the law takes incidences like this very seriously. If I were to report to the police something of this nature and there were eye-witnesses, for sure the villain would be charged with some kind of crime (or at least misdemeanor).
I understand the sisters (victims) probably did not want to report it because of fear of shame from the publicity. Anyways, I wanted to see if there were other reasons why they didn't report to the police (ie. the police wouldn't have taken it seriously). |
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#3 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
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The same thing happens over and over, whether the Recovery or the Catholic Church or the Penn State University. Someone in charge, well-trusted and highly respected, whose credentials in your eyes are without reproach, says to you, "I'll take care of this matter."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#4 |
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I understand. However, because this was not brought to the proper authorities, this kind of behavior in the WL's sons perpetuated, and some others were wounded as well. This is what happens when you idolize someone above the law. No one is above the law (even human government laws), except God Himself.
One my favorite the books is Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, where the main character had a thought that he was above the law. He commits a serious crime (2 murders) and his conscience tortures him, until he gives himself in to the police. During this process, he receives the salvation of God. It is sad that WL was not only saved but considered a spiritual giant, and yet he had no conscience in this matter (regarding his sons). |
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#5 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
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With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? No wonder Witness Lee badmouthed James, it exposes him in a major way. The current leadership of The Local Church cannot afford to let the members know about this side of Lee and his family because it will call into question his so-called rich and heavenly ministry. Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? Thanks brother James for setting us all straight.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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#6 | |
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Consider this: Peter was speaking words of revelation in minute and then in another minute, the Lord called him Satan because he was speaking words of Satan. Also in the Old Testament, David was a man according to God's heart. However he committed 2 great sins (adultery and murder). His sins did not negate the fact that he still had a good heart for God. His sins did not invalidate his "ministry". So goes the same with David's son, Soloman. I don't think WL's entire ministry was invalid just because of his behavior (lack of control over his sons, not apologizing to the saints, ex-communicating innocent saints, etc...). And also, I don't think WL's entire ministry was invalid just because some parts of his ministry may be wrong. The interpretation that James was a little off the New Testament track is not a new idea invented by WL. This has been pointed out previously by Christian scholars. Also there is a reason why the book of James almost did not make it as part of the cannon, but this is a completely separate discussion. The point I am trying to make is that even if WL was wrong in his interpretation of James, that does not invalidate the rest of his ministry. WL is just one man. He has his thoughts and opinions which formed his ministry. Some of it is part of the genuine NT ministry and some of it isn't. I'm not here to debate what is and what isn't. But I want to point out that there are probably no ministers who have it 100% right. If we all understood the bible 100%, we would be God. This is why we need to constantly seek the Lord for more revelation and not assume anything. Lastly, the problem I have with Lee is not the verse you pointed out. But the fact that he did not confess to any of the problems he caused among the saints due to his sons. Instead he kept his image and his sons' images pristine and sacrificed the others. David confessed, so did Peter. Maybe WL confessed too, but he did not do it publicly (especially to clear it with those whom he offended). |
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#7 | |
Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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On the other hand, I have been removed from my steady and intense diet of only WL for a good number of years. Now when I read his ministry, things tend to jump out and trouble me. Lots of this is related to his general condemnation of all things Christian, and his exclusive claims concerning God's blessing upon the Recovery. I now consider these to be "leaven." Concerning the teachings of the Pharisees, the Lord Jesus did tell us to "do what they say, but not what they do," thus exposing their continual hypocrisy in action. The Lord Jesus did not condemn their teachings categorically, but did warn the disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." Hence, due to all we now know of WL and his teachings, we must read his books with a heightened level of discernment.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#8 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
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I have a handful of comments (hopefully short this time), but I will start with this comment by Truth.
Quote:
And when I say materially correct, I mean that the core components of the faith are correctly included. So, for me, to dismiss Lee as a teacher is more about the overall quality of his emphasis than on some kind of weighing of good v bad teaching. He included the sound, orthodox core of the teaching of scripture. But the things that he majored on were too often questionable, at best. He majored on teachings that created a divide between the LRC and the rest of Christianity. He drilled this divide into his followers and then chastised Christianity for lack of oneness or unity. At this point, it would seem that completely separate denominations get along much better than some portions of the LRC, yet they claim to be imbued with special blessing by God for their unifying stand on the basis of political boundaries arbitrarily created by man. Lee did not need to control his sons. He needed to expel them from contact with his ministry or with the churches. He was guilty of the very thing that Eli was condemned for in 1 Samuel. As for the book of James, this little letter never contradicts justification by faith. It simply questions whether claims of faith are legitimate where there is no evidence that the supposed believers are actually obeying the one that they claim to have come to believe and follow. The evidence does not save you. But lack of evidence seriously suggests that claims of belief are nothing more than rhetoric . . . agreeing with terms and phrases but not having a real belief that changes you. As for the suggestion that the police be called on Lee's sons, I am not aware of any situation in which the activity was criminally forced. The "law" that takes these things "very seriously" is civil law, not criminal law. You do want to make an account of the events, but the police are not necessarily the best choice, and have no responsibility to arrest anyone unless there is reasonable suspicion of physical force being applied to gain compliance. In the corporate realm, what is now called sexual harassment generally is not something that you call the police about, but you call a lawyer. It is not a crime for which incarceration can be imposed. But there can be monetary penalties awarded in a lawsuit, as well as loss of employment for the perpetrator (assuming that the employer is righteous). And a stigma that will follow you. It is interesting that one of the women who was involved was the wife of an Anaheim police officer who had to be talked-down from simply going and doing some kind of bodily harm to PL when he found out. The problem there is that the only one that would potentially go to jail for such an act would have been the policeman.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
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"As to the issues you have raised related to the events of the distant past, the brothers here just do not have the heart to reopen old wounds and delve into matters that we believe were resolved many years ago. After considering your manuscript, it just didn’t seem that anything new was there, so it’s hard to see what good could come of it. " There is a comparison between Joe Paterno and Witness Lee. Both were highly respected men of their respective organizations. Each choose a path of controversy in handling a sensitive situation. Difference being Penn State had Joe Paterno's statue torn down. In the recovery, history becomes selective to preserve an image. |
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#10 |
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I don't think Penn State had a choice. The whole nation now knows. And those who were involved by being silent are now being investigated.
Everything is still hush hush in the LC. Criminal charges need to be pressed before all this can be public and images are torn down. That is the difference. |
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#11 |
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I struggle with Paul's word to Corinth about not going to law (I Cor. 6.1-8) because in the hands of abusive leaders it can become a license for them to continue without outside intervention, especially when the "wisest" brother around, who was considered by many to be their "spiritual father," was the one under discussion.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#12 |
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It is true that the LCs has had a very bad history. However, the person who caused the problem, WL, has passed away. Also, the last group of people (the current BB) who witnessed some of the horrible things that happened in the LCs will also pass away. It is sad that no one will take responsibility for what happened. Yet the Lord will judge. We are not the judge. He is the judge.
The fact is the new generation of LC members will rise up and take the place of the BB in about 20 years. Since these younger members have no idea of the past (none witnessed), they are completely innocent. If they remain innocent and do not play hypocrisy, it can bring the LC into a new era. I think this may happen. The Lord will have a new start with a new group of leaders. I already see it happening. The current young people (from teenager all the way to about 40 years old) are much more broad and accepting of Christianity than the older generation. Many of you have not seen the newer members of the LC. The fact is if the current LCs are as exclusive as many of you say they are, they will never survive. However many of you speak from the past. There is another thread that says "What about the present?" Maybe I should post there. Slowly, the part of WL's ministry where he condemns Christianity will fade away. The LCs will no longer use that part of the ministry. It is just impossible to gain and keep new members with that kind of condemnation. I'm already seeing it right now, even with the "kosher" radio program that LSM produces (yes, I know some of you think it is hypocrisy...still this indicates that there is already a shift). Also we rarely speak of these items in WL's ministry in our meetings anymore (only in big conferences that LSM hosts). Believe it or not, many of the current (younger) LCs are no longer as exclusive as many of you think (at least relatively to their past). |
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#13 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/...sky-abuse-1976 "Is it accurate that Coach Paterno quickly said to you, I don't want to hear about any of that kind of stuff, I have a football season to worry about?" Reinsert football season with ministry and that's the consensus not wanting to hear about "persons, matters, and things". |
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#14 | |
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__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#15 | |
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The fact he did not keep his mouth shut over improprieties as current LSM co-workers did, meant he was one who "overturned the apple cart" and could not be counted one to go along with the "group think" apparatus. |
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