Raising the Children of Christians

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I agree it is complicated and nuanced and we should help them how to think not what to think. But by way of example here is what I mean by practical: my son was in a HS youth group that taught the kids they shouldn't masturbate because it was a sin. Later my son mentioned this to me and asked: if I shouldn't have premarital sex and I can't masturbate what am I suppose to do about my raging hormones? My answer: masturbate. And in further discussion at a later date I said: although I don't condone it and you should do everything you can to avoid it before marriage if you still find yourself in a moment of weakness with a girl make sure you use a condom to protect her health and your health and to avoid pregnancy. I don't know if that was the "Christian" response but that was my response and in retrospect I'm glad I gave it to him.

These are the things they're neck deep in. And sometimes the best "practical" advice is the one that goes against their "indoctrination." That's kind of what I'm getting at. They REALLY DO INDOCTRINATE THEMSELVES AMOUNGST THEMSLEVES. So they have built-in guilt about these things. Honestly, I have no idea what I would have told your son. I don't know whether I would have done what you did - assuage his inner torment about a catch-22, or just left is up in the air for him to consider on his own and decide. There really is something to a parent (authority figure) giving a child license in an area where his/her culture has taught him there is no leeway.

I remember once in my junior year of high-school, a classmate called me and invited me to a party. It was a party I knew there would be drinking at. I didn't hang out much with secular high school friends at the time. I told him I could NOT could come. I got off the phone and went back to my dinner with family. When I told my parents who it was and what they wanted, the said "Why don't you go to the party?" This was SOOOOOOOO against my "CONCEPT" of what they wanted me to do. Not because they said so, but because of what impressionable kids internalize. Just surmizing (and I'll likely ask them this soon), perhaps they were looking at a self-righteous kid who needed to just be "friends" with the kids in his class. Given who I was at the time, they probably didn't fear me drinking and driving, so perhaps there was an element of , "This kid needs to loosen up and relate to his fellows..."

That interaction was liberating. Not because it allowed me to go to parties. But because is challenged the "shoulds" that I thought were inherent in the Christian faith.

That's what you did with your son. I not saying here or there whether you did the right thing (not for me to say). But the impulse is right.

Thanks for sharing.

Peter

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

These are the things they're neck deep in. And sometimes the best "practical" advice is the one that goes against their "indoctrination." That's kind of what I'm getting at. They REALLY DO INDOCTRINATE THEMSELVES AMOUNGST THEMSLEVES. So they have built-in guilt about these things. Honestly, I have no idea what I would have told your son. I don't know whether I would have done what you did - assuage his inner torment about a catch-22, or just left is up in the air for him to consider on his own and decide. There really is something to a parent (authority figure) giving a child license in an area where his/her culture has taught him there is no leeway.

I'm beginning to see where you are going with this and agree i.e. the HS kids create their own isolated "Christian" culture among themselves (with help from adults) - sort of a miniature of the adult version. It seems this begs the question: what, if anything, should those involved in HS ministry "teach/advise/counsel" the kids and by what mode? Maybe nothing and just have music and activities?

I would think those adults involved would have to be on the same page as their church's "party line" so to speak. As I mentioned with my own son I directly countered the party line. However if I was involved in HS ministry what would I tell other parent's sons with the same question? I would expect some backlash if I told them what I told my own son but if I told them otherwise I would be dishonest about how I actually felt about it.

So maybe these kind of issues are best left to the parents and HS ministry without advise/counseling/teaching would consist of...? Or with advise/counseling/teaching would consist of...? I'm not sure myself.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I remember once in my junior year of high-school, a classmate called me and invited me to a party. It was a party I knew there would be drinking at. I didn't hang out much with secular high school friends at the time. I told him I could NOT could come. I got off the phone and went back to my dinner with family. When I told my parents who it was and what they wanted, the said "Why don't you go to the party?" This was SOOOOOOOO against my "CONCEPT" of what they wanted me to do. Not because they said so, but because of what impressionable kids internalize. Just surmizing (and I'll likely ask them this soon), perhaps they were looking at a self-righteous kid who needed to just be "friends" with the kids in his class. Given who I was at the time, they probably didn't fear me drinking and driving, so perhaps there was an element of , "This kid needs to loosen up and relate to his fellows..."

That interaction was liberating. Not because it allowed me to go to parties. But because is challenged the "shoulds" that I thought were inherent in the Christian faith.

I like what your parents did here. I don't think "Christian" kids should be isolated from the general culture because such isolation is artificial. Eventually they will be immersed in the culture anyway and have to know how to handle themselves.

And your parents knew you well enough to know you wouldn't drink and drive. With my own kids I said they shouldn't drink underage but if they did they shouldn't drive - call us anytime night or day to pick you up! I also advised them: if you do drink do it in moderation so it doesn't become a chronic habit leading to alcoholism. Again I'm not sure if I was in HS ministry that is what the party line would be. Probably not.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm beginning to see where you are going with this and agree i.e. the HS kids create their own isolated "Christian" culture among themselves (with help from adults) - sort of a miniature of the adult version. It seems this begs the question: what, if anything, should those involved in HS ministry "teach/advise/counsel" the kids and by what mode? Maybe nothing and just have music and activities?

I would think those adults involved would have to be on the same page as their church's "party line" so to speak. As I mentioned with my own son I directly countered the party line. However if I was involved in HS ministry what would I tell other parent's sons with the same question? I would expect some backlash if I told them what I told my own son but if I told them otherwise I would be dishonest about how I actually felt about it.

So maybe these kind of issues are best left to the parents and HS ministry without advise/counseling/teaching would consist of...? Or with advise/counseling/teaching would consist of...? I'm not sure myself.

Very good questions. I certainly don't have answers. Some thoughts though...

To my mind (reflecting on my own experience), the high school years are such a vital time for teaching kids to seek out and evaluate things on their own. A time for them to "own" their faith and if owned, get equipped with the spiritual tools they'll need to confront all sorts of complicated issues once they leave the "nest."

For any second generation believer, the fundamental question is: is this YOUR faith, or is it a historical accident of your birth and upbringing? If kids don't honestly confront this question, they'll either 1) become truly rudderless when the protection of home is gone; or 2) become a party-line zealot.

So - ministry "counseling" would be of this nature. Obviously, on very sensitive issues, its probably best to refer them to their parents. Otherwise, talk through issues with the kids (listening a LOT), but direct them to pray and to read relavent portions of the Word. Perhaps point out the portions of the Word that are used to answer the question by people of DIFFERING INTERPRETATIONS and commend them to their own discernment...

I don't know. I suppose it would vary depending on the issue.

Do most churches have definative "party-lines" when it comes to such questions? I suppose that would complicate things.

When my dad was in Anaheim, he worked with young people. He was always a big advocate of getting positively involved in the world - learn music, play sports, be in the school play, volunteer at a soup kitchen, learn hard work through a job. He advocated for developing one's human potential to the maximum. This first develops their talents which God gave them. Secondly, often it is through really striving...and then failing; through engaging with the world around us - that we begin to have a genuine realization of our need for a Savior. That elusive experience for second generation: the salvation experience versus the "learned salvation" through teaching...

The folks in Anaheim did NOT like that! (with some exceptions). "If they play football, they'll miss the Friday night meeting!"

I suppose if I was the parent of one of those kids and agreed with the "party line" - then I might be pretty pissed that the youth minister was "undermining" my parenting. So, its complicated...

Anyhow, just some disconnected thoughts in response.

In Love,

Peter

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

When my dad was in Anaheim, he worked with young people. He was always a big advocate of getting positively involved in the world - learn music, play sports, be in the school play, volunteer at a soup kitchen, learn hard work through a job. He advocated for developing one's human potential to the maximum. This first develops their talents which God gave them. Secondly, often it is through really striving...and then failing; through engaging with the world around us - that we begin to have a genuine realization of our need for a Savior. That elusive experience for second generation: the salvation experience versus the "learned salvation" through teaching...

Your dad is awesome. I wished I had this kind of counselling. It is too bad that those in Anaheim didn't agree with him.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

When my dad was in Anaheim, he worked with young people. He was always a big advocate of getting positively involved in the world - learn music, play sports, be in the school play, volunteer at a soup kitchen, learn hard work through a job. He advocated for developing one's human potential to the maximum...The folks in Anaheim did NOT like that! (with some exceptions). "If they play football, they'll miss the Friday night meeting!"...I suppose if I was the parent of one of those kids and agreed with the "party line" - then I might be pretty pissed that the youth minister was "undermining" my parenting. So, its complicated...

I think your dad displayed a lot of wisdom in his approach and I think good parenting involves helping each child cultivate and develop their talents based on their interests and natural propensities.

I heard he started a school there which I think is still operating. Was he also involved working with HS kids in the context of the Church in Anaheim? If so, what was the content of his counsel/teaching? What did the HS work "look like" in application when he was involved?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I think your dad displayed a lot of wisdom in his approach and I think good parenting involves helping each child cultivate and develop their talents based on their interests and natural propensities.

I heard he started a school there which I think is still operating. Was he also involved working with HS kids in the context of the Church in Anaheim? If so, what was the content of his counsel/teaching? What did the HS work "look like" in application when he was involved?

Yes, he and my mom helped establish the Acaciawood High School. But he was also engaged the So. Cal young people's work. I don't know the full extent. He had engagement with the college work, with the FTTA, with the HS work, with ministry in Mexico and in Korea. I don't know to what extent.

One thing I can speak to is this. In each of these endeavors, they just opened their home (often literally, often metaphorically). I have heard reports from former FTTers that my dad's fellowship was a saving grace in the midst of angst. I know personally that many of us (young college-age) found refuge, even as we were re-finding our faith, in my parents home.

It was counseling and spiritually empowering, not necessarily teaching. Does that distincting make sense?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. I am trying to draw a line between relating facts/sharing my experience vs. telling my parents tesitmony. Their experience etc... is not mine to tell.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

One thing I can speak to is this. In each of these endeavors, they just opened their home (often literally, often metaphorically). I have heard reports from former FTTers that my dad's fellowship was a saving grace in the midst of angst. I know personally that many of us (young college-age) found refuge, even as we were re-finding our faith, in my parents home.

It was counseling and spiritually empowering, not necessarily teaching. Does that distincting make sense?

Yes this part makes sense. Young people need a comfortable informal place to go and be honest and open and get solid fellowship instead of the hype and/or boring indoctrination often found in larger more formal meetings.

BTW why did your parents leave Anaheim and go back to Cleveland? Just curious.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Yes this part makes sense. Young people need a comfortable informal place to go and be honest and open and get solid fellowship instead of the hype and/or boring indoctrination often found in larger more formal meetings.

BTW why did your parents leave Anaheim and go back to Cleveland? Just curious.

There were a number of reasons, but I don't feel its my place to discuss them. As I said, I don't mind sharing things that are "public knowledge" or sharing my experience in relationship with my parents. But their motives, their testimony, if for them to tell.... or not tell.