Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP and aron,

I understand the need to "rightly divide the word of truth." What I think really happens in the Church at large is that there is so much potential and realized disagreement on the details of end times and the specifics of reward of punishment, etc. that most practical teachers try to stay focused on the essentials, to avoid the bog of those peripheral controversies.

And we all know there is the danger of worrying too much about the details to the point of shoving out the essentials, and becoming like the scribes and Pharisees who "tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness." (Matt 23:23)

I think in the grand scheme, heaven versus paradise are dill and cumin.

At the same time, Jesus continued on to say, "these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others," so there are arguments both ways, as long as you see the overall priorities of things, which was His main point.

I understand the distinction ZNP is speaking of here, having discussed this on numerous occasions. But now, I am no longer certain that paradise has not been taken into heaven. (Eph 4)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand the distinction ZNP is speaking of here, having discussed this on numerous occasions. But now, I am no longer certain that paradise has not been taken into heaven. (Eph 4)

And Paul seems to equate paradise and heaven here in 2 Corinthians 12.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows) such a one caught up to the third heaven (ouranos). And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows) that he was caught up into paradise (paradeisos), and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter. (2 Cor 12:2-4 Darby)

And Revelation 2:7 says the tree of life is in the paradise (paradeisos) of God. So that seems to suggest the paradise of God is somewhere other than "the pleasant part of Hades," or at least a broader concept.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

And Paul seems to equate paradise and heaven here in 2 Corinthians 12.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows) such a one caught up to the third heaven (ouranos). And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows) that he was caught up into paradise (paradeisos), and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter. (2 Cor 12:2-4 Darby)

And Revelation 2:7 says the tree of life is in the paradise (paradeisos) of God. So that seems to suggest the paradise of God is somewhere other than "the pleasant part of Hades," or at least a broader concept.

I now see this matter of "going to heaven" as similar to the LC aversion to "pastor."

It was W. Nee who pointed out in TNCCL that there is no verse in the Bible that ever uses the phrase "Pastor So'n'so," as if this was some great light. I know brothers who got seriously agitated when anyone ever mistakenly implied them to be a "pastor," since in the LC that phrase was worse than "heretic." At least while being labeled a "heretic," one might consider himself to be persecuted for the sake of deeper truths, but being called a "pastor" meant one had degraded to the depths of Christianity. Oh my!

Both "going to heaven" and being called a "pastor" with the hallmarks of degraded Christianity. The Recovery folks can sue their brothers in the courts, swindle their money with Daystar, slander brothers who disagree, steal their real estate, coverup crimes of abuse and molestation, but ... don't call me a "pastor!" And don't say we are "going to heaven!"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I now see this matter of "going to heaven" as similar to the LC aversion to "pastor."

I did a google search, first hit was this question "Are you going to heaven when you die?" The hits come up "Are you going to heaven or hell when you die?" Which in my mind is equal to a "different gospel" spoken of by Paul in Galatians, and according to Paul these ones should be anathema.


To me this gospel is akin to the restoration done on the Jesus fresco that was so hysterical.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand the distinction ZNP is speaking of here, having discussed this on numerous occasions. But now, I am no longer certain that paradise has not been taken into heaven. (Eph 4)

There is also Paul's quote where he says he was "caught up into Paradise" so I also don't think it is clear. I think our unregistered guest has a clear word on that based on the earlier post so hopefully they will clear this all up.

Also, I personally never liked using the thief on the cross for this teaching because he obviously predated the Lord's ascension followed by the outpouring of the Spirit. So just as other verses suggest that things may have changed with regards to paradise I don't think it is all sound to base a teaching on what happens with believers in this age with his story.