The LCS Factor

[Thankful Jane]

When we wrote the book we tried to be very careful to verify and confirm things we wrote about others. There were only a few such accounts included. We had no idea that we needed to go so far as to confirm that the table in a story actually existed and that it was big enough to support BlessD’s memory of the event …

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I know you are doing well and have been able to move on in life. I am so happy for this. I know you say you don't need apologies or expressions of sympathy, but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.

If I were you I would have felt that once again I wasn’t important; something else was. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.

You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

Do we need to be discussing these things now? Yes, we do--mainly for the sake of those who have not yet been able to move on. Also for the sake of those who took part in such abuse, either by carrying it out or silently watching it.

So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more. Not only was the table large, the room was also quite large; they didn’t call it the Big House for nothing. For those who don’t know, the Big House sat on the adjoining property to the meeting hall of the Church in Dallas and I believe it was owned by the Church in Dallas.

Thankful Jane

[Nell]

"The difference between an abuse and a non-abusive system is that while hurtful behaviors might happen in both, it is not permissible to talk about problems in an abusive system. Hence, there is no healing hurts and abuses in the abusive system. Hence there is no healing and restoration after the wound has occurred, and the victim is made to feel at fault for questioning or pointing out the problem."

p. 32, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I'm sorry ... but I do not feel that this was fair to say about Hope and I must speak up here. This paragraph reads to me as an assault on Hope's integrity, which I find almost as offensive as negating BlessD's painful trauma. Hope has attempted to scour his memory for this event, even leaving open the possibility that his memory went into denial. How much more fair and honest can he be? He has continued to express a heartfelt compassion for the LC hurting, including BlessD, that I have never heard from any other LC leader.

Whether Hope was present, or not present, at this gathering, he has expressed responsibility for the church in Dallas where he eldered. If this has happened in Dallas, he wants to know. If he was there, he wants to know. Thus, he has examined many possibilities, whether rooms, people, numbers, attendants, scenarios, etc. not to discredit the sister BlessD, but to conclude a determination of facts which fits the church he knew so well. I saw nothing in his posts which indicated he was not searching for the truth. I viewed his search for details as a genuine endeavor to reconcile the events of her story. On my best day, I would also attempt to follow the same course.

I have tried to make this post as pleasant as I could, without throwing more fuel on the fire ...

[Hope]

My oh my,

So many false positives!!! If the conclusion is already settled on then the facts and evidence really do not matter. No need to collect any evidence that does not line up with the pre-ordained conclusion.

I have with some degree of consternation and disappointment observed how any positive report or experience is dismissed and only the experience of abuse or failure is valid.

I thought the name of the forum was LocalChurchDiscussions.com. I did not realize it was Matt 3:10-11, "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

My position is quite interesting. Those still in the local churches call me a leper and warn people not to talk with me. Some Ex local churchers view me as a former leader and therefore a dissembler and abuser of the brethren. Some free group brethren I have contacted were fine with me until they learned I was damaged goods having been influenced by Witness Lee. I was to be warned against and watched lest I say or do something amiss. I am use to being challenged and put in the position of being guilty until proven innocent. I know what it is to have your motives always challenged as impure or insensitive.

Why did I get into the report to start with? As this thread developed, to me it was way too clear there was the need for some perspective. The opening post set up the worst possible view of people who had been in the local churches. When some tried to give a little perspective, their experience was put down and they were accused of making light of the negative reports. I added my 2 cents worth and the Dallas incident was brought up to discredit my experience and confirm how really bad it was. In a PM I had been told that elders’ rebuking children and going around the parents happened all the time by someone who had never been in the church in Dallas and was not an elder there. Again this meeting was the proof.

After the meeting was reported it became the proof case for other charges to be made and to shut up any positive reports. The details were very vivid and the details were used to give the report validity. The number of elders present was important to show the extreme and ridiculous practice of church abuse of children. The extra local aspect was used to demonstrate how pervasive the manner of abuse was. Thus the holes in the details are important. I noticed that my attempt to give legitimacy to the report while giving a plausible explanation of how the confrontation could have occurred got absolutely no traction but rather a wild scenario was put forth of a training exercise on how to abuse defenseless saints.

I have been asked what I am protecting. Remember the post by Brent Barber on the other forum. It was recently referred to on this forum. I then read it. I cannot express how furious I was. Do you know the rest of the story? Before I told it, I PMed Mike H. for his fellowship. He felt that exposing the man would not be helpful or edifying and ask that I keep it to myself. He used the story of the drunken Noah as an example that may apply. I have taken his fellowship and believe that he is correct. If you want the rest of the story, you must persuade Mike H. If there is a “rest of the story” regarding the young sister, I do not want to know it or expose it. Maybe there is not. I took her word that she wanted to move on and had rather talk about the Lord. I am all for it.

I agree that ultimately the details are not an issue. What is an issue is the move to shut me down and any others who are not in the total axe treatment of the local churches and the brothers and sisters who have been there or are still there.

Now I must ask. What are you trying to protect?

Matt, what did your three anecdotes demonstrate. Baylor university did not allow women to wear shorts on campus.

It seems that once the heat became obvious the ban on shorts was lifted. They were executing psychological manipulation. Within a few hours everyone was in shorts and it didn't get re-reversed. Come on Matt. Psychological manipulation???

Without being told that there was a seating order for the kids... Girls on one side and boys on the others side, everyone always segregated. I didn't. I went and sat by the one person who I had been in babysitting with since I was 6 years old. Even she was a little concerned about my presence. I told her that it was fine and that they needed to learn how to grow up. We didn't live in a prison camp. One brother started to approach me. I shot him a look and he turned and walked the other way. Come on Matt. Prison camp because girls and boy at junior high age self segregate.

Each night before bed they would go around the room in prayer. Each person would pray something and then go to the next. I sat in silence when it reached me until the next person started praying. The silence lasted for 30-40 seconds. After two nights of this one of the "brothers" decided to talk to me about it. I told him, "You are free to pray. I'm not comfortable with it, so just leave me alone.” Come on Matt, prayer in the cabins one by one is a long standing practice at Christian camps.

Then your incredible conclusion:

These little stories are the ones I can give. I resisted the oppressive environment successfully in these cases, but even those who were "rebels" around me didn't have the strength to do it. Most just were dominated by the environment to the destruction of their souls.

I believe that drugs were one of the escapes for those of certain psychological make-ups. I believe extreme depression was another escape. I believe extreme performance-based living was another escape (this is yet another kind of hell on earth).

Matt, I cannot tell you how many of the jr. high and Hi. School kids told me how much of a high light these conferences were.

Why Matt? What are you trying to protect?

TJ, Your post is so full of bitter accusation against me. I have to ask myself why. Can you see that you are doing the very thing you accuse the LCS of doing?

Here are a few of the other statements from posters. Please note the bitter tone and resentment this story has stirred and how it is used as the universal example. How can any positive testimony of the Lord’s work be given if it is anyway associated with the local churches of any time or place?

Knowing that these sorts of bizzare extra-local meetings were actually transpiring gives a whole lot of ground for believing a whole lot of things.
Sure, my account is putely speculative. But knowing how the rest of these details usually fill in, it's not a giant leap at all. Someone suggested it was voyeristic earlier and I declined to think so at first but truly, there was no reason for all these people to be present, however many there were or why.
Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of Baloney. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!
I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

Here is part of the last post from Thankful Jane. Why such hateful words?

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.
but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.
In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.
You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening.
So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more.

Tj, I use to live in the big house. No way 16 men plus the parents and the sister are crowding into that room with a full dining room table. My question about a table was since the first impression was that the meeting occurred in the meeting hall. I asked about details originally because I could not imagine such a thing. When I did, that became a cause on the forum and the events as reported must therefore stand. When I saw how the details were giving standing to attack any positive reports, I began to think about what had been said and how it could not have come down as reported which helped me understand why I was so uninformed.

The point of questioning the event is not did it happen. I never said it did not happen. I am sad for the pain suffered and do not agree that whatever the offense was should have been handled as it was. I have made that perfectly clear over and over.

You know TJ that it is not the events suffered by the sister that have been called into question but your account of it. You visceral reaction makes me wonder what really is important and what is it you are fighting for. Frankly you owe me an apology for your abusive language and belittling remarks.

You have strongly stated your desire to practice Matt. 18. Now is your chance. Yes, you have offended a brother who has never done you any harm.

In Christ Jesus there is still hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

My oh my,

So many false positives!!! If the conclusion is already settled on then the facts and evidence really do not matter. No need to collect any evidence that does not line up with the pre-ordained conclusion.

I have with some degree of consternation and disappointment observed how any positive report or experience is dismissed and only the experience of abuse or failure is valid.

I thought the name of the forum was LocalChurchDiscussions.com. I did not realize it was Matt 3:10-11, "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

My position is quite interesting. Those still in the local churches call me a leper and warn people not to talk with me. Some Ex local churchers view me as a former leader and therefore a dissembler and abuser of the brethren. Some free group brethren I have contacted were fine with me until they learned I was damaged goods having been influenced by Witness Lee. I was to be warned against and watched lest I say or do something amiss. I am use to being challenged and put in the position of being guilty until proven innocent. I know what it is to have your motives always challenged as impure or insensitive.

Why did I get into the report to start with? As this thread developed, to me it was way too clear there was the need for some perspective. The opening post set up the worst possible view of people who had been in the local churches. When some tried to give a little perspective, their experience was put down and they were accused of making light of the negative reports. I added my 2 cents worth and the Dallas incident was brought up to discredit my experience and confirm how really bad it was. In a PM I had been told that elders’ rebuking children and going around the parents happened all the time by someone who had never been in the church in Dallas and was not an elder there. Again this meeting was the proof.

After the meeting was reported it became the proof case for other charges to be made and to shut up any positive reports. The details were very vivid and the details were used to give the report validity. The number of elders present was important to show the extreme and ridiculous practice of church abuse of children. The extra local aspect was used to demonstrate how pervasive the manner of abuse was. Thus the holes in the details are important. I noticed that my attempt to give legitimacy to the report while giving a plausible explanation of how the confrontation could have occurred got absolutely no traction but rather a wild scenario was put forth of a training exercise on how to abuse defenseless saints.

I have been asked what I am protecting. Remember the post by Brent Barber on the other forum. It was recently referred to on this forum. I then read it. I cannot express how furious I was. Do you know the rest of the story? Before I told it, I PMed Mike H. for his fellowship. He felt that exposing the man would not be helpful or edifying and ask that I keep it to myself. He used the story of the drunken Noah as an example that may apply. I have taken his fellowship and believe that he is correct. If you want the rest of the story, you must persuade Mike H. If there is a “rest of the story” regarding the young sister, I do not want to know it or expose it. Maybe there is not. I took her word that she wanted to move on and had rather talk about the Lord. I am all for it.

I agree that ultimately the details are not an issue. What is an issue is the move to shut me down and any others who are not in the total axe treatment of the local churches and the brothers and sisters who have been there or are still there.

Now I must ask. What are you trying to protect?

Matt, what did your three anecdotes demonstrate. Baylor university did not allow women to wear shorts on campus.

It seems that once the heat became obvious the ban on shorts was lifted. They were executing psychological manipulation. Within a few hours everyone was in shorts and it didn't get re-reversed. Come on Matt. Psychological manipulation???

Without being told that there was a seating order for the kids... Girls on one side and boys on the others side, everyone always segregated. I didn't. I went and sat by the one person who I had been in babysitting with since I was 6 years old. Even she was a little concerned about my presence. I told her that it was fine and that they needed to learn how to grow up. We didn't live in a prison camp. One brother started to approach me. I shot him a look and he turned and walked the other way. Come on Matt. Prison camp because girls and boy at junior high age self segregate.

Each night before bed they would go around the room in prayer. Each person would pray something and then go to the next. I sat in silence when it reached me until the next person started praying. The silence lasted for 30-40 seconds. After two nights of this one of the "brothers" decided to talk to me about it. I told him, "You are free to pray. I'm not comfortable with it, so just leave me alone.” Come on Matt, prayer in the cabins one by one is a long standing practice at Christian camps.

Then your incredible conclusion:

These little stories are the ones I can give. I resisted the oppressive environment successfully in these cases, but even those who were "rebels" around me didn't have the strength to do it. Most just were dominated by the environment to the destruction of their souls.

I believe that drugs were one of the escapes for those of certain psychological make-ups. I believe extreme depression was another escape. I believe extreme performance-based living was another escape (this is yet another kind of hell on earth).

Matt, I cannot tell you how many of the jr. high and Hi. School kids told me how much of a high light these conferences were.

Why Matt? What are you trying to protect?

TJ, Your post is so full of bitter accusation against me. I have to ask myself why. Can you see that you are doing the very thing you accuse the LCS of doing?

Here are a few of the other statements from posters. Please note the bitter tone and resentment this story has stirred and how it is used as the universal example. How can any positive testimony of the Lord’s work be given if it is anyway associated with the local churches of any time or place?

Knowing that these sorts of bizzare extra-local meetings were actually transpiring gives a whole lot of ground for believing a whole lot of things.
Sure, my account is putely speculative. But knowing how the rest of these details usually fill in, it's not a giant leap at all. Someone suggested it was voyeristic earlier and I declined to think so at first but truly, there was no reason for all these people to be present, however many there were or why.
Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of Baloney. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!
I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

Here is part of the last post from Thankful Jane. Why such hateful words?

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.
but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.
In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.
You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening.
So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more.

Tj, I use to live in the big house. No way 16 men plus the parents and the sister are crowding into that room with a full dining room table. My question about a table was since the first impression was that the meeting occurred in the meeting hall. I asked about details originally because I could not imagine such a thing. When I did, that became a cause on the forum and the events as reported must therefore stand. When I saw how the details were giving standing to attack any positive reports, I began to think about what had been said and how it could not have come down as reported which helped me understand why I was so uninformed.

The point of questioning the event is not did it happen. I never said it did not happen. I am sad for the pain suffered and do not agree that whatever the offense was should have been handled as it was. I have made that perfectly clear over and over.

You know TJ that it is not the events suffered by the sister that have been called into question but your account of it. You visceral reaction makes me wonder what really is important and what is it you are fighting for. Frankly you owe me an apology for your abusive language and belittling remarks.

You have strongly stated your desire to practice Matt. 18. Now is your chance. Yes, you have offended a brother who has never done you any harm.

In Christ Jesus there is still hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

I did not reply here to open a debate or accuse anyone. It has been 32 years since the incident; obviously I won't recollect the details and I was way too embarrassed to take attendance. Hope, I apologize if I made it sound as though I was pointing a finger at you. I think my reason for posting a reply got lost in transit.

To clarify: this thing really did happen, my parents were not at fault, and no circumstantial evidence or details would ever make it justifiable. In the grand scheme of things, it is not important and did not traumatize me. This is only one time among many (in this organization) where authority figures overstepped boundaries. The cumulative effect of years of overstepped boundaries caused me more grief. No matter what, I still say let's leave the past in the past. ALL is forgiven. Really, and truly, totally forgiven! The blood of our Savior is pretty powerful stuff :-).

[Thankful Jane]

Mine in blue.

Isa 1:18, Come now and let us reason together

My oh my,

So many false positives!!! If the conclusion is already settled on then the facts and evidence really do not matter. No need to collect any evidence that does not line up with the pre-ordained conclusion.

I have with some degree of consternation and disappointment observed how any positive report or experience is dismissed and only the experience of abuse or failure is valid.

I thought the name of the forum was LocalChurchDiscussions.com. I did not realize it was Matt 3:10-11, "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Here is what you don’t seem to understand. This thread, created by djohnson, is under the Spiritual Abuse subforum. Djohnson’s thread is a valid one for this subforum. You came here and out of the blue accused djohnson of wanting us all to disappear and of wanting to curse us all. You also came here trying to point out the LC positives and correct us for discussing spiritual abuse only. A few others joined in with you. When we reacted to this you accused us of denigrating those who were speaking positively. Most of what has gone on the past day or two is in reaction to what you did. Some of us want to talk about the abuse in the LCs for a number of reasons, the most important of which is the abused. That is why we came to this thread.

By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family. Every member of the family should give their full attention to such a problem upon its discovery, first to help the abused member and second to see that the abuser gets his due and gets help. Family members who start trying to talk to authorities and social workers about all the good things in the family are exhibiting signs of denial and also are showing that they care more for family image than the one who was abused.

The normal response to abuse of those we love being exposed is for all to be horrified and upset by this (even if there is only one case!) and to give it full attention. When the molested child gets help and the abuser gets punished, stopped, and hopefully helped, then things can proceed. Until that happens, the family train is stopped dead on the tracks. Many times there are other victims that need to be surfaced … If this matter surfaces many years later, the same process needs to take place, even if people including the abused have “moved on.” Why? The abuser is still on the loose and there are certainly more victims that may not have been able to “move on.”

I believe God feels this strongly about the damage done to His family. Djohnson referred to the dirty sins that were committed by those who left. It’s ugly, I agree, but, sadly, there are cases like this. I know things that have shocked me to the core which were done by ex-members who left the Lord. Also, there are many destroyed marriages and psychologically wounded children who were left unable to trust God. Elders were directly involved in very dark ways insome of these happenings. I know of three cases off the top of my head that would make an afternoon soap opera sound like a Sunday School story. Children in jail, parents alienated from their children for years, women left out on the street barely able to survive, literally,and more. I’d tell some of these stories, but the further harm that could come due to thetangle of divided family members (some in and some out) makes that impossible.

After the meeting was reported it became the proof case for other charges to be made and to shut up any positive reports. The details were very vivid and the details were used to give the report validity.

The report has validity not because of how it is written but because it is a true event.

The number of elders present was important to show the extreme and ridiculous practice of church abuse of children. The extra local aspect was used to demonstrate how pervasive the manner of abuse was.

You are attributing motives to the writing of the account which you cannot know. They are false. The story may actually do these things, but to say that was the motive in writing it is a false accusation.

Thus the holes in the details are important. I noticed that my attempt to give legitimacy to the report while giving a plausible explanation of how the confrontation could have occurred got absolutely no traction but rather a wild scenario was put forth of a training exercise on how to abuse defenseless saints.

If you want to get to the bottom of what is true, it seems the most logical thing to do is to get the facts, the names, etc., and the appropriate place to do this would be the PM system. Such details would help your memory and save you from speculation. The names and other details were not included in the book for good reason. You never PMed me. Maybe you PMed BlessD? I thought your speculative explanation was feasible, but not definitive. You weren’t there. BlessD was. It is only reasonable that her account gets the most traction, until other facts are established.

I have been asked what I am protecting. Remember the post by Brent Barber on the other forum. It was recently referred to on this forum. I then read it. I cannot express how furious I was. Do you know the rest of the story?

There are many stories related to Brent that I know, so I can’t answer your question because I don’t know what story you are talking about.

Before I told it, I PMed Mike H. for his fellowship. He felt that exposing the man would not be helpful or edifying and ask that I keep it to myself. He used the story of the drunken Noah as an example that may apply. I have taken his fellowship and believe that he is correct. If you want the rest of the story, you must persuade Mike H. If there is a “rest of the story” regarding the young sister, I do not want to know it or expose it. Maybe there is not. I took her word that she wanted to move on and had rather talk about the Lord. I am all for it.

There is not a “rest of the story” that would change the truth of what was presented. There is a little more information, but it has the potential to make the already black story blacker.

I agree that ultimately the details are not an issue. What is an issue is the move to shut me down and any others who are not in the total axe treatment of the local churches and the brothers and sisters who have been there or are still there.

Hope, you are the one who moved to shut down djohnson. I explained previously why I found your presentation of positive things to be inappropriate on this thread.

Now I must ask. What are you trying to protect?

If by this you are questioning my motive in what I have posted on this thread, then here is my answer: My motive in discussing the abusive behaviors in the LC is to help the abused. Many abused find these forums and get help. I spent 6 hours recently listening to two young women talk about their painful family experience growing up in the LCs. This was the first time they had ever talked freely about this to anyone. They were nervous and apologetic seemingly waiting for the ax to fall as they spoke. Never in a million years would I have tried to speak to them about “positive” experiences or balance their bad experience with stories of good ones. They were hurting. They needed help. The starting place for abused is being able to talk about the abuse and learning they were not alone. They have been helped by the information on these forums.

TJ, Your post is so full of bitter accusation against me. I have to ask myself why. Can you see that you are doing the very thing you accuse the LCS of doing?

Please quote my bitter accusations against you so I can see what you are talking about. No I don’t see how what I have done is the same. You’ll need to explain how.

Here are a few of the other statements from posters. Please note the bitter tone and resentment this story has stirred and how it is used as the universal example. How can any positive testimony of the Lord’s work be given if it is anyway associated with the local churches of any time or place?

Knowing that these sorts of bizzare extra-local meetings were actually transpiring gives a whole lot of ground for believing a whole lot of things.
Sure, my account is putely speculative. But knowing how the rest of these details usually fill in, it's not a giant leap at all. Someone suggested it was voyeristic earlier and I declined to think so at first but truly, there was no reason for all these people to be present, however many there were or why.
Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of Baloney. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!
I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

I do not find a bitter tone or resentment. These are comments made about the actual event that actually happened. People are free to comment. It is a logical conclusion that if something like this could happen, it is not a stretch to believe there were other things. The story happened, Hope. It speaks for itself. You cannot control what people hear from a true story. If you can prove it false with facts, then please do.

I have no problem with the idea of filling in the details and really understanding how this all came to pass. I personally do not believe you were there, because you said you weren’t. That is good enough for me. If I think about the fact that you were a leading elder in Dallas, it is hard to understand how this could have happened in your backyard without your knowledge, but I still believe your statement that you had no knowledge of it. I believe it is most likely you were not involved because you would have objected.

With BlessD, in one breath you told her you didn’t question her story and in the next you questioned her story. If I remember correctly you raised questions about the veracity of her story more than once. There is a difference in my mind between questioning the truth of what someone says and filling in the missing pieces that make it all make sense. This is what I found offensive. I felt very badly for BlessD. BlessD’s hurt didn’t end in Dallas. The abuse by leadership continued in OKC

Here is part of the last post from Thankful Jane. Why such hateful words?

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.
but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.
In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.
You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening.
So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more.

I can see how this offended you, however, I wasn’t talking to you directly and it was not meant to be hateful to you. It was meant to be kind to BlessD. I made a choice between taking care of how you might feel and how she might feel. I chose to take care of her. I would do it again. I do not hate you at all. I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread.

Tj, I use to live in the big house. No way 16 men plus the parents and the sister are crowding into that room with a full dining room table. My question about a table was since the first impression was that the meeting occurred in the meeting hall. I asked about details originally because I could not imagine such a thing. When I did, that became a cause on the forum and the events as reported must therefore stand. When I saw how the details were giving standing to attack any positive reports, I began to think about what had been said and how it could not have come down as reported which helped me understand why I was so uninformed.

The point of questioning the event is not did it happen. I never said it did not happen. I am sad for the pain suffered and do not agree that whatever the offense was should have been handled as it was. I have made that perfectly clear over and over.

Okay, I will take your word on this. It didn’t come through perfectly clear to me that you were not questioning the truth of the report. Trusting that if I were to re-read your posts I would find your claim to be true, please accept my apology for representing in what I wrote, that you were questioning the truth of what happened.

You know TJ that it is not the events suffered by the sister that have been called into question but your account of it. You visceral reaction makes me wonder what really is important and what is it you are fighting for. Frankly you owe me an apology for your abusive language and belittling remarks.

My account of it was actually written by her first in first person. We edited it to put it in the third person with a pseudonym and to improve grammar. She stated in her first post that she reviewed the final copy after editing and approved it as accurate.

Please quote my abusive language and belittling remarks so I can apologize specifically.

You have strongly stated your desire to practice Matt. 18. Now is your chance. Yes, you have offended a brother who has never done you any harm.

There is no question that you have never harmed me in any way. I also have no intention to harm you.

I am now aware you are offended and I am sorry that I offended you. I am willing to go the distance with you to clear up the offense. If you need me to be more specific, then I will need more specific explanation of what you want me to apologize for.

Thankful Jane

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Thankful has nailed it with the simple statement: it's none of the elders business! And if it were my daughter involved I would have told them that to their face and walked out with my wife and child. Leaving the 16 or 8 or 5 or 3 or 7 or ? self important busybodies sitting there around the table with their mouths hanging open.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Thankful has nailed it with the simple statement: it's none of the elders business! And if it were my daughter involved I would have told them that to their face and walked out with my wife and child. Leaving the 16 or 8 or 5 or 3 or 7 or ? self important busybodies sitting there around the table with their mouths hanging open.

a bit of humor... where were you when I was 16?

[OBW]

There is a code of conduct and it is mostly that we do not divulge names of anyone who does not want their name revealed.

The problem with this whole fiasco for the past 36 or so hours is that it appears to have been brought up as an example of how it was in Dallas. Even if all the facts are entirely correct, it really has nothing to do with Dallas because it appears to have been orchestrated by elders from Houston and/or OKC and likely with the oversight/blessing of Benson, wherever he was living at the time.

It was fairly quickly established that there was no clarity on who specifically was present. It was stated as 16 elders, although there were few times that all elders from all the major localities in the region were together anywhere other than Anaheim. The big house was grand central station. It was generally home to a couple and a number of either single brothers or single sisters. It was not a choice location for an elders’ meeting. It was a big house, but it was not a huge house. It did not have huge rooms.

Unfortunately, bringing the event up as an example of Dallas is like when a TV news anchor made a very public remark like “I knew it” when it was revealed that there was a Dallas connection somewhere in the life of the guy who shot Reagan. Like the city of Dallas was responsible. The reported event, even if it was at the big house, is not a reflection on Dallas, but on the whole of the LC leadership. It did not clearly involve Don, yet he is willing to apologize for the event anyway. He did not deny it happened, but simply has no recollection of being party to such an event, even as an unwitting witness.

It is a tragedy that such things happened, and probably too regularly. Throwing it into the mix here with a motive of saying something that the event actually does not say is problematic. It exposes things that should not be exposed. It has brought into question the totality of the event. I do not doubt that it happened. But since BlessD has admitted that the event was partly a blur, it seems that bringing it up to make a point about the “change of venue” location of the confrontation was a bad idea. It has opened wounds that did not need reopening. That was not Don’s fault. But since it was mentioned with what I can only read as the unstated purpose of making comments about Dallas, a place virtually no one involved in this discussion can claim, and about Don, also quite uncertain as to validity, it is unfortunate that the result can only be to damage the story. It does not fit the purpose for which it was brought out.

Before anyone responds, remember, I have not dismissed the account as false. I believe it happened. But why was it mentioned? Question that. BlessD was drug into the open under poor circumstances once. Why was it done a second time?

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

I noticed that my attempt to give legitimacy to the report while giving a plausible explanation of how the confrontation could have occurred got absolutely no traction but rather a wild scenario was put forth of a training exercise on how to abuse defenseless saints.

Yes, it was a wild scenario that I put forth but what made it wild?

That nothing like that could ever have happened? Tell me, then Hope, how DID the practical functions of the eldership such as this get passed from one to another? I have trouble believing that this isn't at least in part an important reason for the extra-local character of the meeting. Making sure everything is done appropriately there and then as well as in the future?

Tell me you have never known men so insensitive and I will believe you that you knew none then. But I have known men whose minds worked just like this and was myself victim of one of them, which activities were performed in express support of the mission of LSM and the Local Church.

I stated that my story was purely speculative but I also began by expressing my concern that having meetings of this kind opened the door to many such speculations.

Dismiss my story by merely countering that it has no foundation in any factual reality you ever saw and I would respond that you simply never saw it.

But that does not make it "wild."

[Peter Debelak]

Please delete.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Dear Roger:

To my knowledge, no one else has addressed other Christian groups aside from myself, so I take your comments - on this point - to be responding to my posts (if that is not the case, let me know).

Hi Peter,

I guess I did a bad thing in associating the two forums in my post. I was not addressing anything specific you said, but rather considering a general tendency. In fact, I could only remember that other Christian groups had been mentioned, but not by who. I guess I sort of carried over from the other forum. Please allow me to cut that rope right now.

I'm short of time this morning. But I will try to do my "homework" later and get back with you.

I would say that I am trying my best to be a little less sharp around the edges since coming here. I let some of those folks over there get under my skin. I know that is totally my fault, since Love is not easily provoked.

Talk ta ya later.

Roger

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

I agree that we surely need the Lord's mercy that we would never violate our conscience and hurt or abuse others, even while obeying an authority.

I don't believe this has been stated in either your painful tragedy (as written in ToG chapter one) or BlessD's story. Correct me if I am wrong. I have not read of any who were required to violate their conscience to obey an authority and hurt one of the Lord's children.

If I may do so, based on what I have read, put the two painful events together for comparison. There were three types of people in both events, firstly the evil perpetrator(s), secondly the victims, and thirdly the unsuspecting witnesses. As one has suggested, the witnesses may have been called in to legitimatize the actions and to be "trained in the Lord's way."

I place 99% of the responsibility on the perpetrators. They bear all the guilt. They are leaders who have failed us. Leaders are held to higher standards, and I do believe that these ones should be rightly called "evil workers."

The real question we face is what responsibility do the unsuspecting witnesses face? They were caught off guard. They did not know the facts. They get ushered into a room and witnessed things that left them in shock. They were not asked for their opinion.

I hope I have characterized these events fairly. Forgive me if my analysis is faulty. My underlying concern, which you may have imagined, are not just Texan events, but Ohio events too. Many more have been hurt by the abuse of authority. I must say that I have never witnessed such abuse towards sisters as we are discussing here, but the principle is the same. I have seen and heard many brothers get abused, yet rarely did I ever hear of a brother rising up in his defense. How did that system so disarm us? How much did our silence condemn us?

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

When we wrote the book we tried to be very careful to verify and confirm things we wrote about others. There were only a few such accounts included. We had no idea that we needed to go so far as to confirm that the table in a story actually existed and that it was big enough to support BlessD’s memory of the event …

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I know you are doing well and have been able to move on in life. I am so happy for this. I know you say you don't need apologies or expressions of sympathy, but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.

If I were you I would have felt that once again I wasn’t important; something else was. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.

You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

Do we need to be discussing these things now? Yes, we do--mainly for the sake of those who have not yet been able to move on. Also for the sake of those who took part in such abuse, either by carrying it out or silently watching it.

So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more. Not only was the table large, the room was also quite large; they didn’t call it the Big House for nothing. For those who don’t know, the Big House sat on the adjoining property to the meeting hall of the Church in Dallas and I believe it was owned by the Church in Dallas.

Thankful Jane

Thanks Thankful Jane. You are right, I did not want any apology; and, for sure no pity. I somewhat regretted signing on here to say what happened really happened. [Is it such a big deal? I don't get it. It's not a rocket science that many injustices occured and boundaries were crossed. This absurd thing doesn't even touch the surface.] I don't see how my telling the truth here helped anyone. Especially, with all the "noise" about details.

YES! I have moved on and am very happy. Thanks, in part, to your support and friendship.