The LCS Factor

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

The following is from Matt

It would have been better if you had not isolated the sentence. Here is the entire statement.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Hope,

I quoted out both items in isolation because I had already quoted the entire post just a few posts previously.

I had read the quoted portions in context.

Originally Posted by Hope

None of the blaming of the parents or of the environment in which the parents placed the child is of much profit. Remember there is an enemy.

I just re-read the context again and I am not seeing how these are Biblical even with your added explanation.

Let me clarify. It is a primary responsibility to take care of a child's environment. Even when a parent tries to put their child in a good environment they cannot control everything. This is very true, but to realize that you did put your child in a bad environment (knowingly or unknowingly) should generate a remorseful response about the environment and not a defensive one that tries to carve out a very, very, very small section of the bad environment as being better. This is what you have done. You've basically said, "We tried to do better and Dallas wasn't as bad as Houston, OKC, etc". The fact is that the whole thing was corrupted and unhealthy for kids.

Let me go straight to the crux of my concern.

Looking backwards do you believe that having your children in the LC environment was a good one for them? I'm asking a specific and direct question to you because your responses are pointing in many other directions towards various generalized anecdotals about others. This can be evasion, so I am just asking the direct question. Your response to this question may shut me up.

As you can tell by now (and before now) this thread has really bothered me. The role I've seen you play on this thread has really bothered me. I know you probably feel the same way about me right now. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Hope

There is profit in seeking the Lord to learn from our short comings and to course correct but be careful not to be drawn into the devils game of accuse, accuse accuse.

You used this statement to try and counter djohnson who was making an accusation. The devil's game is to accuse. However, it is also the Lord's job to accuse (or better said, convict). The Lord accuses and convicts the guilty for the purpose of repentance and mercy. The devil accuses for the purpose of condemnation and destruction. So, Biblically speaking it is not just the devil who does the accusing. God does it when it is righteous to do so. So again, I say that your statement in it's context was not Biblical. You were actually on a path towards accusation against djohnson that came a few posts later.

In this case, I think there is a level of righteousness to what djohnson has been saying that the system of the LC was very messed up and it has had a big impact on children who grew up there. Trying to paint one bad situation against the backdrop of other bad situations is evasion. If there was sin (and there was) then it should just be addressed and root causes determined. Roger said this better than I could.

Although, I do realize that there is need for balance I have no stomach for it when it is done BEFORE root causes are established as appropriate before the Lord.

I'm being very direct because to be terribly honest I am watching what appears to be a pattern of evasion in your posting. You are very, very smart and capable of moving around something like this so I am putting myself in the path (not as a pharisee), but as a little roadblock that you can move right around while others wonder what I am doing. I'm doing this in all seriousness before the Lord and not just to accuse, accuse, accuse.

Matt

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Matt

Hope,

Let me clarify. It is a primary responsibility to take care of a child's environment. Even when a parent tries to put their child in a good environment they cannot control everything. This is very true, but to realize that you did put your child in a bad environment (knowingly or unknowingly) should generate a remorseful response about the environment and not a defensive one that tries to carve out a very, very, very small section of the bad environment as being better. This is what you have done. You've basically said, "We tried to do better and Dallas wasn't as bad as Houston, OKC, etc". The fact is that the whole thing was corrupted and unhealthy for kids.

Let me go straight to the crux of my concern.

Looking backwards do you believe that having your children in the LC environment was a good one for them? I'm asking a specific and direct question to you because your responses are pointing in many other directions towards various generalized anecdotals about others. This can be evasion, so I am just asking the direct question. Your response to this question may shut me up.

As you can tell by now (and before now) this thread has really bothered me. The role I've seen you play on this thread has really bothered me. I know you probably feel the same way about me right now. Sorry.

You used this statement to try and counter djohnson who was making an accusation. The devil's game is to accuse. However, it is also the Lord's job to accuse (or better said, convict). The Lord accuses and convicts the guilty for the purpose of repentance and mercy. The devil accuses for the purpose of condemnation and destruction. So, Biblically speaking it is not just the devil who does the accusing. God does it when it is righteous to do so. So again, I say that your statement in it's context was not Biblical. You were actually on a path towards accusation against djohnson that came a few posts later.

In this case, I think there is a level of righteousness to what djohnson has been saying that the system of the LC was very messed up and it has had a big impact on children who grew up there. Trying to paint one bad situation against the backdrop of other bad situations (among christianity) is evasion. If there was sin (and there was) then it should just be addressed and root causes determined. Roger said this better than I could.

Although, I do realize that there is need for balance I have no stomach for it when it is done BEFORE root causes are established as appropriate before the Lord.

I'm being very direct because to be terribly honest I am watching what appears to be a pattern of evasion in your posting. You are very, very smart and capable of moving around something like this so I am putting myself in the path (not as a pharisee), but as a little roadblock that you can move right around while others wonder what I am doing. I'm doing this in all seriousness before the Lord and not just to accuse, accuse, accuse.

Matt

Hello Dear brother Matt,

Just had an appointment not show up. Thus, I have a few minutes. The Lord put you on my priority list today so I will try to give some answers. I may write more later. It is up to the Lord and the environment.

ROOT CAUSE: DEPUTY AUTHORITY, DEPUTY AUTHORITY, DEPUTY AUTHORITY.

Secondary Cause: "The Work" as a parrallel entity.

Third Cause: Bad people gain position in heirarchy and cannot be challenged.

Fourth Cause: All of us have a fallen nature, flesh, old man, body of sin, natural life, some amount of conformation to the age-culture from which we came. But once position in heirachy is established, (see root cause) this side may be unchecked and the bad fruit comes out. Even very sincere Christians are subject to works of the flesh that war against the spirit.

Setting for the above causes to be developed: We are in a spiritual warfare. 98% plus of the dear ones in the local churches have no idea how to fight this warfare. I did not until I learned after I left. What a difference it has made in all areas of my Christian life, family life and business life.

Did anyone on purpose put there children in a bad environment? I hope not but I have done foolish things and seen plenty of foolish things done in regards to the children. (But that is not unique to the local churches. What is a problem is when the problems cannot be addressed. So here we have some common ground. Wow, (I learned wow from FPO.)

Yes, having my children in the Dallas church environment was very good for them. Some of the finest Christians I have ever known were in the church in Dallas. I could list names and it would be like an honor roll of faith. The local churches were full of wonderful believers. I like to think of the following verse from Psalms when I think of Bud and Judy Philley, Thurman and Dianna Massey, Leon and Mary Ann Hunter, Gary and Chris Brashears, George and Cleo Whitington, Ed and Jerilyn Lamp, Tim and Valerie House, Mary and Milas Lizby, Buddy and Yvone Britt and on and on. Ps 16:3, As for the saints who are in the earth, They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight. NASB


On the other hand, as the LSM developed (remember it was not always there) I began to isolate my children from the programs coming from So. California. There were some rotten characters who had wormed their way into "the Work". You will have to wait for the book to get the names but you probably already know some. From 1981 until I left Texas in 1986 I kept my children away from anything coming from Anaheim and kept them away from particular bad apple types. If I ever get to it, I plan to zero in on things and evil workers who really hurt children. Just as I have wonderful remembrance of the majestic ones, I am a lot madder at the evil workers than you are. I will speak of their deeds without mercy. The chariots of Jehu are coming. But Jehu made sure that he did not harm any of the servants or prophets of the Lord. Even at the time of Ahab, the Lord had 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. I will be very specific as to personalities and as to the actions. I do not believe in communist justice. That is if you know the criminal probably lives in a neighborhood then just send the entire neighborhood to Siberia and you know you got the criminal.

Now if you put the above together you know what I will write about. Maybe there is no need to write the rest of the history.

Thanks for the complement but I am not falling for that Matt. I know you are way smarter than I. I am an old man now and I am experienced enough to know when I am over matched. I just happen to have my own set of information and experiences.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello Dear brother Matt,

Just had an appointment not show up. Thus, I have a few minutes. The Lord put you on my priority list today so I will try to give some answers. I may write more later. It is up to the Lord and the environment.

ROOT CAUSE: DEPUTY AUTHORITY, DEPUTY AUTHORITY, DEPUTY AUTHORITY.

Secondary Cause: "The Work" as a parrallel entity.

Third Cause: Bad people gain position in heirarchy and cannot be challenged.

Fourth Cause: All of us have a fallen nature, flesh, old man, body of sin, natural life, some amount of conformation to the age-culture from which we came. But once position in heirachy is established, (see root cause) this side may be unchecked and the bad fruit comes out. Even very sincere Christians are subject to works of the flesh that war against the spirit.

Setting for the above causes to be developed: We are in a spiritual warfare. 98% plus of the dear ones in the local churches have no idea how to fight this warfare. I did not until I learned after I left. What a difference it has made in all areas of my Christian life, family life and business life.

Did anyone on purpose put there children in a bad environment? I hope not but I have done foolish things and seen plenty of foolish things done in regards to the children. (But that is not unique to the local churches. What is a problem is when the problems cannot be addressed. So here we have some common ground. Wow, (I learned wow from FPO.)

Yes, having my children in the Dallas church environment was very good for them. Some of the finest Christians I have ever known were in the church in Dallas. I could list names and it would be like an honor roll of faith. The local churches were full of wonderful believers. I like to think of the following verse from Psalms when I think of Bud and Judy Philley, Thurman and Dianna Massey, Leon and Mary Ann Hunter, Gary and Chris Brashears, George and Cleo Whitington, Ed and Jerilyn Lamp, Tim and Valerie House, Mary and Milas Lizby, Buddy and Yvone Britt and on and on. Ps 16:3, As for the saints who are in the earth, They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight. NASB


On the other hand, as the LSM developed (remember it was not always there) I began to isolate my children from the programs coming from So. California. There were some rotten characters who had wormed their way into "the Work". You will have to wait for the book to get the names but you probably already know some. From 1981 until I left Texas in 1986 I kept my children away from anything coming from Anaheim and kept them away from particular bad apple types. If I ever get to it, I plan to zero in on things and evil workers who really hurt children. Just as I have wonderful remembrance of the majestic ones, I am a lot madder at the evil workers than you are. I will speak of their deeds without mercy. The chariots of Jehu are coming. But Jehu made sure that he did not harm any of the servants or prophets of the Lord. Even at the time of Ahab, the Lord had 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. I will be very specific as to personalities and as to the actions. I do not believe in communist justice. That is if you know the criminal probably lives in a neighborhood then just send the entire neighborhood to Siberia and you know you got the criminal.

Now if you put the above together you know what I will write about. Maybe there is no need to write the rest of the history.

Thanks for the complement but I am not falling for that Matt. I know you are way smarter than I. I am an old man now and I am experienced enough to know when I am over matched. I just happen to have my own set of information and experiences.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

I have a simple question, what is a fine Christian?

[finallyprettyokay]

Hope:

You listed four causes for a lot of the troubles. I would submit a fifth --

Good, decent men (and women, to some degree -- but they were 'lesser') who truly loved God and wanted to serve Him. These men were usually 'born' leaders, with charisma. They were appointed as elders. With no experience, often, and almost always with no real training or education in dealing with the sort of human problems you describe in your post. Family problems, kids, marriage, work, all these things. I remember some of the 'elders' as real youngsters -- married maybe 5 or 6 years, having toddlers and preschoolers, and working at their 5th or 6th job. Not much life experience, really. Even the gentlemen that were older had little or no training in counseling or family support skills. An exception that I think of (I'm sure there were more, I just don't know them) was John Smith in San Diego. He had been a Baptist minister pre-LC, had experience and education being a pastor, a shepherd. And it showed. He also had a few years under his belt, raising a family, etc. He was the man I wrote about early on this (long, long) thread that stood up and said 'my kids WILL be in school sports, etc'. Some easier to stand up when you are the leader, but still a brave, honorable thing to do. Amazing man, John.

So, in all of our superiority and arrogance about poor, fallen Christianity, we allowed unqualified men to become leaders that really shouldn't have been leading in that sort of powerful capacity. Because we all know how much power those elders had. I can imagine that many of the good, decent, sincere men (Don, you included, I think) just trembled at the responsiblity and plowed their way through as best as they could, given the tools they had. Or lack of tools. But we just couldn't follow the ways of 'religion' and have trained, educated leaders. Heavens, no!!!!


Yeah, there were plenty of bad people going for the gold of controlling people --- terrible. But some of the people were just in way over their heads. Still, that does not in any way excuse them. Not even close. Hurting people, especially kids, is never every excused for ANY reason.


It was a sick, corrupt system.



Bookworm, boy howdy was there a class system. And single sisters? Bottom of the heap. I have some thoughts about that, sometime for another thread -- (oh, boy something to look forward to )

Has everyone checked out my post on the My Perspectives thread? I am shameless. Self promoting. The worst.


fpo

[Thankful Jane]

Good points, FPO. I checked your post and PMed you!!

Dear Hope,

The discussion is moving on and I plan to move on with it, but first of all, I would like to respond to something from yesterday. Also, since you have not responded to my request for further clarification about how I offended you, I will assume you did not feel the need to do so and that you are not still offended with me. If you would prefer to have further dialogue about this privately, please feel free to contact me via a PM.

Originally Posted by Hope

When I saw the direction in which dj was leading the thread, I could not hold my peace.

Not being able to hold our peace is not an excuse for going after a person. It is wrong to make a person and their motives the subject.

When we are disturbed by what we are hearing, the only thing that is fair game is the statements or deeds that are disturbing us. We can expose the error we see in them. (Granted, it may feel quite personal when statements or actions are questioned, but that is different than making the person the topic.)

Originally Posted by Hope

Posters on this forum take the actions and teachings of WL, the LSM and the BBs and come to conclussions about their motives. Are posters here under the same standard unless they are in an attack mode against all that is lc? Then do they get a free shot? From the actions and teachings of posters can a reasonable person fail to pick up on some of their motives or does that only apply to WL or an elder or an ex-elder?

As for addressing motives, we shouldn’t do this no matter who it is. No one gets a free pass. We can address deeds because we can see them, but we cannot see inside a man’s heart to know his motives. Maybe we can wonder and even have suspicion in our own mind, but to pronounce a public judgment about another’s perceived motives is over the line. We are all guilty of this at times; however, I don’t think anyone has done this to you on this thread. If I or anyone else has, please show me where. I will gladly repent for this if I did it.

Originally Posted by Hope

As this thread developed, it went from how may the LCS have contributed to errant behavior of some of the children to the members are like drug addicts and thus have dysfunctional families to all are idolaters to stories of gross abuses of authority and attacks and belittling of anyone who offers a different perspective. Thus my prediction seems to be coming true.

I think it's okay to use such terms to talk about serious problems related to "spiritual things." I am involved in a situation right now where the father is actually a God addict. That doesn’t mean he is really addicted to God. It means he is addicted to things that have the appearance of being God: church, ministry, serving others, etc. All his time and resources go there. This is what makes him feel good about himself. His drug keeps him from really seeing himself in the light of God and making very necessary changes in his present hurtful behavior towards his family. He is not putting obedience to God first, but is serving something else (idolatry). He is also guilty of abusing authority.

Please give me an example of what you are calling attacks and belittling. You’ve said this several times. I really want to see what you are talking about here. Not accepting another’s perspective does not equal belittling.

Originally Posted by Hope

Concern for abused children is way down the line from discrediting all involved in a local church.

My goal is not to discredit any person or locality or the LC movement as a whole. Rather it is to know the truth and to help others know the truth. Truth is what really helps people find freedom. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If in any person or Christian organization is found to be not holding truth, then they stand self-discredited by this.

Originally Posted by Hope

TJ recommended the books of Neil Anderson. Tremendous work, not just for troubled Christians or substance abuse situations but for anyone. I believe I have read and closely studied all his works and have given them to troubled parents and children. I cannot recall him encouraging the counselor to find out how or what outside influence created the problem.

Thanks for mentioning Anderson’s works. Actually Anderson does speak about the importance of addressing what outside influence created the problem. He says, “The first step to freedom is to renounce your previous or current involvements with satanically inspired occult practices and false religions … Any activity or group which denies Jesus is the Christ, offers guidance through any source other than the absolute authority of the written Word of God, or requires secret initiations must be forsaken. No Christian has any business being a part of any group that is not completely open about all they do. If the leaders of any group demand absolute authority instead of serving the needs of their constituents, do no submit to them.” He includes a list of organizations. In His book Living Free in Christ, the Local Church is listed. In this step he is dealing with outside influences that contribute to the problem.

The most applicable step I believe, however, is step 2 which is truth vs. deception. This step requires separating truth from deception. Anderson says that deception is the most subtle of all Satanic strongholds. I spent a lot of time studying deception and reading other materials about this. I wrote some about it myself. I reached the conclusion that “deception” is the best description of the stronghold of Satan in the Local Churches. False beliefs and false teachings produce bad fruit. If a Christian group produces bad fruit in its members lives, then that all of that group’s teachings and beliefs must be carefully examined against the truth in God’s Word for what is false.

As for bringing up cases of abuse in the LC, there are many reasons to do this. The first is so that the abused can be comforted by fellow members. What they have lost cannot be recovered, but care, and even indignation, expressed by others does help them, even if the abused say they don’t need it. All of our hearts are examined by God in the process.

Also, cases of abuse are useful to identify what kind of deception is at work by examining the abusive practices in the light of the Bible’s teaching. Hearing about such cases can help others, who have been abused and are still suffering silently because of it, to realize they are not alone and begin to find help for themselves. They also can serve to convict abusers of their sin, and, of course, to warn others not to join up with the LC. Probably most important of all reasons to examine cases of abuse is that the final spotlight lands on the devil, where it belongs, and he loses the ability in that area, at least, to deceive us again.

Thankful Jane

[finallyprettyokay]

You know, I have shared that Max R. is a friend and a man who made a huge difference in my life. Anyone who ever heard him speak knows the man is a riot. I am talking stand up, Comedy Central here he comes. Funny and smart.

Well, one of my favorite things that he would say had to do with people misunderstanding each other. He would say something like this:

Did you think that I was thinking something about you? I wasn't thinking that, but I think you thought that I thought that and I think you think you know what I was thinking about your thinking, but I wasn't thinking that at all.

Something like that. The point being, we just misunderstood each other, and should have checked it out better.

So (deep breath here) -- I timidly advance this theory --- way back, at the beginning of this thread, the blessD story was posted. Terrible story, everyone who would hear that story would be horrified.

Don, having been from that city, and having been a leader there, thought something like this:

that we thought that he thought that he was thinking that maybe we thought he was one of the men who did that but when he first told us he wasn't one of them, we all (as far as I know) believed him, because we already had a sense of who he is but he didn't know that we really did think that, he thought that we were thinking something wrong. But we really weren't thinking that at all.

AT THAT POINT ( I feel like Perry Mason ), Don sort of stumbled around in his horror at the story and his even more horror that we would think he was part of that shameful meeting. And in the stumbling, people heard evasions and maybe even denial that it really happened at all. And that created a lot of feelings.

But I think he was never thinking that.

And it just got worse. And really, I don't think anyone here really disagrees very much at all. I think we all agree that the system was bad, bad, bad. And people got hurt. We all know that. We all got hurt there, I think, or we probably wouldn't be spending time on this forum. Kids got hurt there. And we also know that there were plenty of good, well-meaning people, doing the best they could. But somethimes those good, well-meaning people hurt good well-meaning people. That is never anything but wrong, wrong, wrong.

Now I feel like Jimmy Carter, at the Peace Summit. I wish. What a role model that man is.

So. Timidly, I propose this scenario. Maybe?


FPO

[Hope]

Hello BlessD,

Not sure myself but any of the ones on the list would be fine Christians. It was a term I grew up with and have used it to describe a person you know who is a believer in Jesus Christ and who has had a positive impact on your life and others.

Hope

[bookworm]

Now I feel like Jimmy Carter, at the Peace Summit. I wish. What a role model that man is.

So. Timidly, I propose this scenario. Maybe?


FPO


Hello finallyprettyokay,

I just read your post on My Perspective and thank you for it. I, too, am grateful for this forum and the opportunity to try to “make more sense” of our LC experience. I agree this experience does have “profound, long-reaching effects” on each of us and it helps tremendously to have someone to talk with about it who understands. As Thankful Jane pointed out, in sharing with others our hearts are examined by God in the process. We realize we are not alone and we begin to find help for ourselves and be set free.

From your most recent posting it appears you are similar to me in that you like to try to smooth things over and “fix things.” However, I am learning that it is much better to stay in the light and allow the Lord to do His work because he knows our hearts and what problems we all have. He sees the big picture while ours is limited.

(By the way, I am by no means a Jimmy Carter fan, for what that is worth, but do agree with your statement of “what a role model that man is.” It reminds me of the Hebrews Conference in LA—the last one my husband and I attended. At that one Witness Lee used the statement, “What a ____!” and said it is a way to comment on something without offending anyone.)

[finallyprettyokay]

Bookworm:

I remember that too --- What a Baby!!!!

I thought a lot before my last post, a couple of days actually, wanting to be sure that I wasn't trying to just smooth things over, and finally decided to write. I do do that at times, but I am also very much a stand-up person who is not afraid to face the real situation. Head-on, if needs be.

I write this not so much to explain my motives or feelings, but to say I hope everyone really looks at what I wrote, and doesn't just see it as a Pollyanna attempt at peace. Peace is good, no doubt. But not at the cost of truth.

Sorry about the Jimmy Carter reference --- I really didn't mean to be political. I actually forgot everyone doesn't feel about him like I do. Dumb of me.

fpo

[Hope]

Hi Guys,

As I was closing down, I saw the post about this remark. Actually that was a statement by T. A. Sparks which WL claimed Sparks tried to teach WL. WL used it to discredit Sparks. I heard the story so many times sitting around the table or in a living room. WL liked to belittle Sparks. He would claim we know people by little things. This was an example of the "real" character of Sparks etc. Just a little note from the what is it worth bin.

Don

[blessD]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

So (deep breath here) -- I timidly advance this theory --- way back, at the beginning of this thread, the blessD story was posted. Terrible story, everyone who would hear that story would be horrified.

Don, having been from that city, and having been a leader there, thought something like this:

that we thought that he thought that he was thinking that maybe we thought he was one of the men who did that but when he first told us he wasn't one of them, we all (as far as I know) believed him, because we already had a sense of who he is but he didn't know that we really did think that, he thought that we were thinking something wrong. But we really weren't thinking that at all.

AT THAT POINT ( I feel like Perry Mason ), Don sort of stumbled around in his horror at the story and his even more horror that we would think he was part of that shameful meeting.
FPO

this totally made me laugh out loud.

When I was a teenager, I recall the young people in Dallas and TX area considered Hope a friend and someone they could talk to - he was one of the few leaders or non-leaders considered a trusted person. However, one person could never fix everything that was broke.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

Hope:

..... An exception that I think of (I'm sure there were more, I just don't know them) was John Smith in San Diego. He had been a Baptist minister pre-LC, had experience and education being a pastor, a shepherd. And it showed. He also had a few years under his belt, raising a family, etc. He was the man I wrote about early on this (long, long) thread that stood up and said 'my kids WILL be in school sports, etc'. Some easier to stand up when you are the leader, but still a brave, honorable thing to do. Amazing man, John.

Has everyone checked out my post on the My Perspectives thread? I am shameless. Self promoting. The worst.

fpo

Yeppers! John Smith was a most excellent Shepherd...His wife Sonya too. They had 7 kids I think...rowdy bunch they were!

That's why my experience in San Diego was good. John Smith, Les Cites (even though he is a die hard LSMR, UGH! Willie Samoff and Roger Beck were the elders in San Diego.)

Roger is with the LORD now. I loved them all. I still do. What a blessing it was for me to be under their covering. They were/are very good, decent, GOD loving people...people loving people. I think of them. I pray they are doing well.

Each of them were different from each other but complimented each other very well. They knew the flock and the flock knew them.

I think that's why me & FPO are pretty OK!

Uh...and Mrs FPO...can you get any MORE shameless & self promoting ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm asking a specific and direct question to you because your responses are pointing in many other directions towards various generalized anecdotals about others. This can be evasion, so I am just asking the direct question. Your response to this question may shut me up.

As you can tell by now (and before now) this thread has really bothered me. The role I've seen you play on this thread has really bothered me. I know you probably feel the same way about me right now. Sorry.

I'm being very direct because to be terribly honest I am watching what appears to be a pattern of evasion in your posting. You are very, very smart and capable of moving around something like this so I am putting myself in the path

Dear brother Matt,

I have expressed my feeling about your recent posts in an honest way. Twice, when we have fellowshipped in the past, you expressed to me how forceful you are capable of being with people, and how you appreciated those who pointed this out to you. For the first time, I am seeing this side of you, so now I am only reminding you of our past conversation.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dear brother Matt,

I have expressed my feeling about your recent posts in an honest way. Twice, when we have fellowshipped in the past, you expressed to me how forceful you are capable of being with people, and how you appreciated those who pointed this out to you. For the first time, I am seeing this side of you, so now I am only reminding you of our past conversation.

Ohio,

If you think I have been pressing to hard then I am sorry. I'm not completely finished with the topic of idolatry as it relates to this thread which I know you won't like it. Just take it for what it's worth in your mind. If that's zero, then okay. You don't have to agree with me.

Hope has quite successfully responded to what I was thinking and asking about in regards to the environment for kids. Here are the two key paragraphs.

Yes, having my children in the Dallas church environment was very good for them. Some of the finest Christians I have ever known were in the church in Dallas. I could list names and it would be like an honor roll of faith. The local churches were full of wonderful believers. I like to think of the following verse from Psalms when I think of Bud and Judy Philley, Thurman and Dianna Massey, Leon and Mary Ann Hunter, Gary and Chris Brashears, George and Cleo Whitington, Ed and Jerilyn Lamp, Tim and Valerie House, Mary and Milas Lizby, Buddy and Yvone Britt and on and on. Ps 16:3, As for the saints who are in the earth, They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight. NASB

This is true. There were (and still are) some excellent christians in the LC who could have a great influence on children. I think the system prevented some of this more positive influence.

In this next paragraph, Hope clearly acknowledges that the only way to protect your children as time progressed in this particular group was to keep them out of various kinds of activities sponsored by the LC system. Eventually this meant removing your whole family from the LC as he did.

Originally Posted by Hope

On the other hand, as the LSM developed (remember it was not always there) I began to isolate my children from the programs coming from So. California. There were some rotten characters who had wormed their way into "the Work". You will have to wait for the book to get the names but you probably already know some. From 1981 until I left Texas in 1986 I kept my children away from anything coming from Anaheim and kept them away from particular bad apple types.

In a subsequent post, Hope has indicated his attempts to seclude Dallas from some of the worse types of influence and has rightly indicated that it was a slippery slope that no one person could prevent the slide. To that end, Dallas may have been a little better while Hope was there but the leadership processes were so bad that one person could not make much difference.

So, thank God for one's like Hope who tried, but it was an uphill battle that was not surmountable at that time and the impacts on children were tremendous. Even more so than I think many parents may want to realize. As a child enters into adulthood they must take responsibility for their situation and all the baggage brought into it. This does not discount the fact that the child is having to face many things that were introduced as a result of the environment they were set in as children.

Matt

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Matt

Let me clarify. It is a primary responsibility to take care of a child's environment. Even when a parent tries to put their child in a good environment they cannot control everything. This is very true, but to realize that you did put your child in a bad environment (knowingly or unknowingly) should generate a remorseful response about the environment and not a defensive one that tries to carve out a very, very, very small section of the bad environment as being better. This is what you have done. You've basically said, "We tried to do better and Dallas wasn't as bad as Houston, OKC, etc". The fact is that the whole thing was corrupted and unhealthy for kids.

Let me go straight to the crux of my concern.

Looking backwards do you believe that having your children in the LC environment was a good one for them?

Matt

Matt, as I read your post directed at Hope I have to give my response. being raised in the local church environment was ideal prior to 1986. Most of the teaching and instruction I recieved was Biblically based. I have no regrets how my parents raised me. I feel the Lord placed me exactly where I needed to be.

Terry