Did Witness Lee believe his teaching on "One city one church"?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I believe Lee tried to operate according to Nee's ecclesiastical principles when he started afresh in the US.

WN's ecclesiatical principle in TNCCL
Whenever an apostle tries to control a church, he loses his extra-local character. Much confusion has arisen because the divine line of demarcation between the churches and the work has been lost sight of. (Watchman Nee, Chapter 6, sect 1, TNCCL).

Witness Lee controlled the vision of the Elders
In this chapter we will consider the need for the elders to renew their vision of the Lord’s recovery. (Witness Lee, Basic Principles concerning the Eldership, chapter 10, section 1).


Witness Lee controlled what was taught by elders in the churches
The only way that can preserve us in the recovery is the unique ministry. If we say that we are in the recovery, yet we teach something so lightly, even in a concealed way, that is different from God’s economy, we sow the seed that will grow up in division. (WL, Elders’ training book 3, the way to carry out the vision, chapter 4, sect 2).

In addition the LSM controlled what books a church bought and sold.

Churches were required to attend trainings.

Watchman Nee stressed repeatedly that it was wrong for an apostle to try and control a church. But it seems very obvious that WL completely ignored that principle. Where is the evidence that WL tried to operate within the ecclesiastical principles that WN gave?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Watchman Nee stressed repeatedly that it was wrong for an apostle to try and control a church. But it seems very obvious that WL completely ignored that principle. Where is the evidence that WL tried to operate within the ecclesiastical principles that WN gave?

That's a good question.

Lee definitely taught many of these same ecclesiastical principles, but whether or not he ever put them into practice is another question.

I have consistently found the most informative source on the history of the Recovery in the USA to be brother Hope. One thread in particular New Light From Old brought out numerous insights from behind the scenes. I found post #16 particularly informational. I will copy it here ...

The turn away from the vision WL had regarding the Practice of the Local Church Life began in January 1974 at the very first special elders and co-workers conference.

Thanks brothers for bringing up this thread. In the coming third chapter, I stress this event. Few of the saints realize or even know what an earthquake this meeting was:

An attempt to salvage the Day Star disaster,

National Local Church Credit Union, complete with a national organizational chart with LSM on top, (bet you never heard of that),

Consolidation of existing but not so critical churches,

Move to Anaheim and to the "young people cities,"

Max R. becomes WLs right hand man to direct the churches on behalf of WL,

The Launch of LSM and dissolving of "The Stream Ministry",

The official designation of the Approved speaker list,

The shift from local initiated meetings to Life study ministry and common direction from Anaheim,

The appointment of Max R. to travel to the churches to make adjustments on behalf of WL,

The shift from elders being shepherds to being good organizers and dynamic leaders,

The public put down and humiliation of senior brothers and co-workers begins,

etc. Much more to report!!

The effects were immediate but gradual. While I have no use for the cult books that came out later or the authors, I believe the Lord allowed it as a loud siren warning to us. The full effect of this falling away came about in 1986. By then it was too late. WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977. He told John So and myself in Athens Greece that he was the thumb and other gifted brothers were fingers whose function depended on being related to him. (Now that was quite a conversation!!!)

May we all continue in His love and peace and abound in hope.

In Christ Jesus, "Hope" aka Don Rutledge

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's a good question.

Lee definitely taught many of these same ecclesiastical principles, but whether or not he ever put them into practice is another question.

I have consistently found the most informative source on the history of the Recovery in the USA to be brother Hope. One thread in particular New Light From Old brought out numerous insights from behind the scenes. I found post #16 particularly informational. I will copy it here ...

So, if we look at the history in 1974 WL was clearly not following WN’s ecclesiastical principles. The reason was not a new revelation, but Day Star. So then this raises a new and equally critical question:

Was Day Star an example of poor judgment or fraud?

I will start a new thread for this question, but let me say this, if Day Star was fraud then it strongly supports the assertion that WL did not have faith in his teachings but rather they were a means to an end.

Step 1 – Start the church based on WN’s credibility. Explains why he lied about WN's excommunication.
Step 2 – Raise serious funds to establish LSM through fraud. Simplest explanation of the facts.
Step 3 – Convert the churches into an LSM franchise. History as presented by Hope.

In this plan the only person capable of sending WL to prison is PL and TL who know that Day Star was a scam from day 1. In exchange for guarding the secrets PL is given an office, a salary and is protected at all costs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So, if we look at the history in 1974 WL was clearly not following WN’s ecclesiastical principles. The reason was not a new revelation, but Day Star. So then this raises a new and equally critical question:

Was Day Star an example of poor judgment or fraud?

It seems, from all I have read, that Lee regularly exhibited poor judgment in a string of failed business activities. Even his departure from Taiwan to the USA resulted from intense pressure over using church funds to pay off bad business debts surrounding Hall #1 in Taipei. It appears like Lee got mixed signals from Nee concerning mixing his ministry with business. Nee told him definitively not to do this, and Lee once commented about how he could ever face Nee knowing he had done what he was instructed never to do. On the other hand, Nee's pharmaceutical business was quite lucrative. Lee appeared to have learned more from what Nee did, than what he taught. The Blendeds, btw, were the same with Lee.

I doubt Dayster was initially embarked upon with fraudulent intentions. Lee was presented with a large offering and a concept for making money. Saying that, however, I will note that both Don Hardy and Terry Reisenhoover, Dayster officers, witnessed what appeared to be illegal business practices, which confirms that Lee believed he was above the law. Lee refused to heed any of their warnings, and hence they quit.

Phillip Lee changed Lee's outlook on money. Why attempt to "do business" when we could charge good money for Daddy's ministry. It was proceeds from those early trainings, no longer called open conferences, that rescued Lee from investor cries for payback. Lee and Texan operatives set up a secret (at least to Dallas elder Don Rutledge) bank account via the church in Dallas in order to make these payoffs.

This context was occurring during that first special elders and workers gathering in Jan 1974. Obviously it was convened to do damage control. It also attempted to institute means to control the Recovery going forth. Phillip Lee rose to prominence despite the reservations of every one who knew him. Why would Lee violate every principle of ministerial conduct and the better judgment of all his supporters?

We do know that Lee's Life Study of the N.T. began shortly after this. Starting with the book of John, Lee methodically went through the Bible. He said this burden was from the Lord to "release the riches" given to him by the Lord. Now we know that part of that incentive was also financial.

[ZNPaaneah]

So ignoring what WL said, here is what he did:

Originally Posted by Ohio

1. Lee regularly exhibited poor judgment in a string of failed business activities. Even his departure from Taiwan to the USA resulted from intense pressure over using church funds to pay off bad business debts surrounding Hall #1 in Taipei.


2. Lee was presented with a large offering and a concept for making money.

3. I will note that both Don Hardy and Terry Reisenhoover, Dayster officers, witnessed what appeared to be illegal business practices, which confirms that Lee believed he was above the law. Lee refused to heed any of their warnings, and hence they quit.

4. It was proceeds from those early trainings, no longer called open conferences, that rescued Lee from investor cries for payback.

5. Lee and Texan operatives set up a secret (at least to Dallas elder Don Rutledge) bank account via the church in Dallas in order to make these payoffs.

6. This context was occurring during that first special elders and workers gathering in Jan 1974. Obviously it was convened to do damage control. It also attempted to institute means to control the Recovery going forth. Phillip Lee rose to prominence despite the reservations of every one who knew him. Why would Lee violate every principle of ministerial conduct and the better judgment of all his supporters?

1. One event can be written off to bad judgment followed by repentance. Regularly getting involved in these fraudulent activities should no longer be passed off as "bad judgment" or "innocent mistakes". If WL did not suffer financial loss why should we give him the credit of calling it a "mistake" or "bad judgment".

2. If you ask people to donate money to your ministry you might get $10-$20 offerings from each person. If however you pump up this "money making" proposal and you are asking for "investments" not "donations" you might get $1,000 to $2,000 from each person. You can make 100 times more. Investing is all about trust. Who do you trust more than the "Apostle", the close coworker to Watchman Nee, the "Minister of the Age". Once again, I think all the evidence points to fraud and there is no logical reason to discount it.

3. Here is a person who has repeatedly been involved in fraudulent business practices, he was run out of Taiwan, he saw what happened to WN, he was charged by WN never to do this, and the two leading officers in the latest fraudulent scheme complain of illegal business practices, he ignores them so they are forced to quit. I consider this proof he was a fraud.

4. Once again, in order to make money from LSM they needed a large hall, Anaheim, and free lodging, the church in Anaheim. Launching LSM took money, much of which he got from donations for building the hall and the free labor. It seems to me the plan was always to create the LSM franchise church and Day Star was merely a stepping stone to get the funds he needed. If WL actually profited from Day Star while everyone else lost money that would be a secret that he would gladly trade PL for JI to keep.

5. Secret payoffs are proof of fraud.

6. Putting PL in charge after 1974 reminds me of when Scar took power after Mufasah's death and Simbah running away. From this point on it was a new order of Lions and Hyenas. In this analogy WL was Scar, PL and TL were two of the hyenas.

[Ohio]

I hate to use bad analogies, but this present Boston manhunt highlights the same sort of anomalies that surrounded Lee.

How could such a great guy ... filling in the blanks with numerous superlatives ... do such terrible things?!?

"Someone must be framing him for these terrible things" ... "we know he would never do such things" ... or so say his closest associates.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

6. Putting PL in charge after 1974 reminds me of when Scar took power after Mufasah's death and Simbah running away. From this point on it was a new order of Lions and Hyenas. In this analogy WL was Scar, PL and TL were two of the hyenas.

Too bad I missed that movie.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems, from all I have read, that Lee regularly exhibited poor judgment in a string of failed business activities.

James
1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

According to James a "double minded man" is in contrast to a man of faith.

You know that a man is a "double minded man" because he is unstable in all his ways.

We know that the LRC was unstable in all its ways, going through turmoils every 10 years. Excommunications, lawsuits, recriminations, etc. We have also deduced that these turmoils, though always blamed on others, were the result of unrighteousness in the Lee house. To me the evidence is shouting that WL was a double minded man, and by extension not a man of faith.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (1:7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (1:8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

According to James a "double minded man" is in contrast to a man of faith. We know that the LRC was unstable in all its ways, going through turmoils every 10 years. Excommunications, lawsuits, recriminations, etc. We have also deduced that these turmoils, though always blamed on others, were the result of unrighteousness in the Lee house. To me the evidence is shouting that WL was a double minded man, and by extension not a man of faith.

James description here is incredibly wise when considering the facts of Lee's history. Unfortunately, no one connected the dots here. In fact, years ago I often considered James' word here to refer to someone bordering on the mentally ill.

Lee definitely had two sides. One was completely in line with the rest of the body of Christ, as Francis Ball was told reporters, "he's simply an old preacher whom we all love." Yet to insiders, Lee viewed himself someone greater than apostle Paul -- as the culmination of a long lineage of MOTA's to end the age. This duplicity of personal estimation could only be described as double-mindedness. Did he really believe he was both? Or did he just fraudulently misrepresent himself to outsiders?

At times this contradiction of persona was seen within the LRC. Behind the scenes Lee would manipulate the lives of workers and elders, yet publicly challenge the audience, "Who do I control? I can't even control a mosquito? Which church did I control?" Yet who would publicly dare to stand up and declare he was "controlled?" Lee claimed to be "standing on the shoulders of all who went before," yet not one contemporary Christian leader, either inside or out of the Recovery, could ever be considered his peer.

Lee's double-mindedness, coupled with hypocrisy and abuse, is what caused many of us to reconsider if our "vision" had anything to do with God or the Bible. James said, "let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." And this fact must eventually be acknowledged. Where were heaven's answers to our numerous prayers? The fact that the Recovery could find no "relief" from heaven, and constantly were "forced" to seek "relief" from the judicial system is quite telling.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

James description here is incredibly wise when considering the facts of Lee's history.

Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

PL and TL were ungodly. By definition DayStar and LSM “walked in the counsel of the ungodly”. This was attested to by the brothers that quit DayStar and the elders that were run out of Anaheim. WL was in the seat of the scornful. “The way of sinners” would refer to violating US laws in selling, promoting, registering, managing, and disbursing the DayStar company. It would also refer to the “Max rebellion”, the “Sister’s rebellion”, etc., etc.

1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Did the lawsuits “prosper”? Did the Irving hall “prosper”? Did the New Way “prosper”? If “leaf” refers to the “work” of the tree, can we say that WL’s “leaf shall not wither”? Wouldn’t the discussion of the teaching of MOTA, “One city one church”, WN’s excommunication, and a variety of other topics be described as the “withering of WL’s work”?

1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

This analogy is used by John the Baptist, so even if you have been poisoned about this psalm by WL, you can still receive the analogy of chaff from John the Baptist in the Gospel of John. Chaff is a protective outer coating to grains like wheat and barley. Because it is very light compared to the seeds you “winnow” the grain by throwing it into the air on a windy day. The chaff is blown away. This reminds me of the repeated “storms”, “turmoils”, “quarantines”, etc. in the LRC. Recently, Nigel Tomes article on the ground of the church indicates they are winnowing WL’s teachings and they are being blown away.

1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish


Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. We cannot see a man’s faith, but we see the difference between “the righteous” and sinners, scornful and ungodly. So then would you consider that WL “Knew the way of the righteous” or that he “sat in the seat of the scornful” (scornful – expressing contempt or derision). Would you say that the people who ran Daystar (PL and TL) and then later the LSM (PL) “knew the way of the righteous” or “were the counsel of the ungodly”? Would you say that all those damaged by WL over the years “did not know the way of the righteous” or was it that they “stood in the way of sinners”?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee definitely had two sides. One was completely in line with the rest of the body of Christ, as Francis Ball was told reporters, "he's simply an old preacher whom we all love." Yet to insiders, Lee viewed himself someone greater than apostle Paul -- as the culmination of a long lineage of MOTA's to end the age. This duplicity of personal estimation could only be described as double-mindedness. Did he really believe he was both? Or did he just fraudulently misrepresent himself to outsiders?

At times this contradiction of persona was seen within the LRC.

The contradiction was never more apparent than the Febraury 1986 Elders conference. I know Indiana has the audio. Historically it is worth examining. If anyone else has the conference audio, listen for yourselves.

As to whether Witness believed he was greater than apostle Paul. I did not know him. I had heard brothers who made similar statements. It is possible if certain co-workers puffed Witness Lee up enough times that after a while Witness was going to believe his own press.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's a good question.

Lee definitely taught many of these same ecclesiastical principles, but whether or not he ever put them into practice is another question.

I have consistently found the most informative source on the history of the Recovery in the USA to be brother Hope. One thread in particular New Light From Old brought out numerous insights from behind the scenes. I found post #16 particularly informational. I will copy it here ...

Ps10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

WL shut down the Stream Ministry and started the LSM in the 1974 meeting. This is a device used to protect assets. It was done as a result of the DayStar fiasco. You have a secret fund to pay off some investors, and you move all your assets to a new corporation in the event of a lawsuit as a way to shield assets. At the same time he is suggesting a Local Church Credit Union. Is there any suggestion that there was a repentance or feeling of shame? Is there any doubt he was focused on getting the saints money? He was motivated by covetousness, how can that be denied?

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977. He told John So and myself in Athens Greece that he was the thumb and other gifted brothers were fingers whose function depended on being related to him. (Now that was quite a conversation!!!) (quote from Hope as posted by Ohio)

Surely this is an example of the wicked boasting of his heart’s desire.