The LCS Factor

[Nell]

Matt,

I can't help but wonder why there is so much resistance to discussing this topic of idolatry. Why so much denial? It's like pullin' teeth. It must not be a "dead horse" after all. What's the worst that could happen if we all are exposed down to our core as people who worshipped at the altar of Witness Lee. I'll confess now that I did it. By God's mercy, He shined the light and I confessed my sin.

If so many want to "drop it", I think that's the very reason we need to pursue it. Someone I know said that once.

Nell

[SpeakersCorner]

Nell,

I'm not afraid to admit anything about myself that is wrong. If I worshiped idols, I'd admit it. I've confessed many personal mistakes I made over the years in these discussion groups. It isn't that tough for me to do.

My problem is, I don't buy Matt's definition of idolatry and I don't buy his mother's definition of demonics. These are serious charges and the level of proof must be very high. Matt's production of the '86 letter does not rise to the level of proof I think is required and I plan to respond to it. Jane's accusations of demons (or evil spirits as she previously said) has offered no real evidence.

You have no problem admitting to this because you have completely rejected the LC. I have not. I wonder if I came online here and started accusing all those here who have left the LC as being under the influence of demons and worshiping idols what kind of response I would get.


SC

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

My problem is, I don't buy Matt's definition of idolatry and I don't buy his mother's definition of demonics. SC

So what are your definitions?

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I wonder if I came online here and started accusing all those here who have left the LC as being under the influence of demons and worshiping idols what kind of response I would get. SC

If you made a good case, I'd certainly listen. I do not want to be found loving or serving anyone but Jesus.

Thankful Jane

[SpeakersCorner]

Matt,

I guess my biggest objection to your judgment of the LC is the level of accusation you take. I am sure every person and group has some hidden idols in the saddlebags (as did Rachel) that at some point in the journey become exposed and must be discarded. If that were all you were pointing out, I'd have no problem.

But you have gone far beyond that claiming that the LC is and has been permeated with idolatry. Actually, terming it "idolatry" is far worse than simply saying there are idols there. You are saying it's systemic. As proof you use a letter which, if used as an Exhibit in an "Idolatry" trial of the LC would certainly face strenuous cross-examination. At worst, it is a statement of loyalty to Witness Lee. It is built upon the "Minister of the Age" doctrine, a tenet you may object to (I do) but one that certainly has precedent. Not only did the Brethren believe this, the Jesuits basically did as well. Their mission was to be bound to poverty, chastity, and to "enter upon hospital and missionary work in Jerusalem, or to go without questioning wherever the pope might direct." You may not agree with this, but calling it idolatry is quite a big accusation.

Look, I think those so-called pictures of Jesus hanging in 90% of the churches of the world are idols. But I certainly don't think the churches that have them are idolatrous and every single member is guilty of idol worship simply for attending meetings there.


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

I guess my biggest objection to your judgment of the LC is the level of accusation you take. I am sure every person and group has some hidden idols in the saddlebags (as did Rachel) that at some point in the journey become exposed and must be discarded. If that were all you were pointing out, I'd have no problem.

So, if I say that not every person in the LC was in idolatry would you be happy? What level of watering down would I need to accomplish to make you happy with the fact that something God hates was systematically integrated into the LC? (And yes, I'll offer more proof of it even though there is already a ton of it on the other forum).

Remember, I'm happy to agree with your Jeremiah 2:1-2 verses in relation to the LC. To what extent are you willing to accept that there was idolatry. Was if 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%? Was it systemic? Was it just a few individuals? Be specific.

I think it affected everyone. I think the exceptions were very limited. I'm being specific and I'm happy to be wrong. I making definitions and supporting them Biblically. Your defense so far is very subpar in my view.

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Look, I think those so-called pictures of Jesus hanging in 90% of the churches of the world are idols. But I certainly don't think the churches that have them are idolatrous and every single member is guilty of idol worship simply for attending meetings there.

SC

Have you heard about the 'shrine' to Witness Lee in Taiwan? How about the cemetery built here in the US? How about the fact that Witness Lee's name is invoked more often that Jesus Christ's in most of the LSM/LC meetings these days?

Do any of these count towards my claims of systemic and widespread idolatry in your mind?

Please remember where this got started. We were talking about the impact of the LC system on the next generation. I pulled out the topic of idolatry because God is very specific in his judgment against idolatry. It will affect subsequent generations because of the deeds of the fathers. I'm actually still on that topic. There was a systemic problem that was pervasive. I've shown evidence and there are others that have spoken up to say, "Yeah, guys, there's a real problem here."

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt, Jane,
I've made my case against the claim of evil spirits influencing the recovery from the outset so no need to continue repeating them.

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

Good point.

Methinks the reaction here is way overboard for what has been said. As believers we are not to be ignorant of the enemies devices. What is wrong with discussing what the Bible tells us about the devil and how he afflicts us. I'm not seeing that in every verse, but I see it in some.

The topic of this thread is spiritual abuse.

So I ask you, just who carries out spiritual abuse? It isn't God. It isn't us when we are walking with God. So who is it? Is it just mean old people all by themselves? I'm fine with going there, but it seems a little more soberminded to say that it is men who have been deceived by the devil to carry out acts of spiritual abuse all the while believing they are serving God.

I think there is a verse that says that there are those who will kill people and think they are serving God. (John 16:2)

We really don't have to be afraid of hearing about the wiles of the devil. If it gets too scary for people, then they can just go to another thread. Right? There are a lot more threads on this forum.

Thankful Jane

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

Igzy,

On the first point (I haven't really made an argument) you're probably right. I will sum up what I was fumbling to say: Saying the LC is idolatrous and that every member was engaged in idolatry is way over the top. Saying there are idols is fair ... but then, you can make this claim for all Christians, all groups.

As for my having blinders on, again, I agree. I've got a lot of them on. I yearn to be rid of all of them but it takes time, my friend, it takes time.

I really am done with this one for now. When I get into these heated skirmishes, a lot of things happen. One, I usually overstate something or the other. Two, I offend someone. Three, I learn something. Four, I get ticked off. Five, I get over it. Six, I get a PM from someone which is always nice. Seven, I repent. Eight, I ask myself, why am I spending so much time here? Nine, I vow to back off. Ten, I read a fresh post and break my vow. Eleven, I make a new vow and go public with it to help me keep it. Twelve, I discover I've neglected something in my "real life" (like turning off the hose) and run to do it.

There's about seventeen more things I could list, but I've lost you all by now so why bother?


SC

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

So what are your definitions?

Actually, Thankful Jane, the burden to define is upon you. You are the one who has accused the LC of being demon-influenced from day one. What is your definition of demon (or evil spirits as you formerly called it) influence?

I'm also waiting for you to give some concise evidence that Witness Lee was under the influence of evil spirits from the outset of the recovery in the U.S.


SC

[Paul Cox]

When Ron Kangas stands on the pulpit and declares that Witness Lee is the "Acting God," that's idolatry.

But for the average Living Stream Church member, I'm not so sure. They will be judged, as will we, according to the heart. There is little doubt that the "Blended Brothers," for the most part, are guilty of idolizing Witness Lee. We know this because of their words. And the Lord Jesus said that out of the mouth comes the abundance of the heart.

Roger

[blessD]

I had some terrible experiences in the local church, but I don't get the focus on idolatry and/or demons. Some of my immediate family members remain involved, and they are terrific people. I don't think they are idolatrous and I don't get the feeling of demons when I am around them. I detest the place and the whole Witness Lee deal, but I respect and trust their decision. I think many of the Christians there are sincere too and not evil as some posts portray.

I don't see a lot of difference in this extreme and the LC members condemning Catholic church members for being a part of the Great Harlot. At the end of the day, isn't it about the heart?

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by blessD

I don't see a lot of difference in this extreme and the LC members condemning Catholic church members for being a part of the Great Harlot. At the end of the day, isn't it about the heart?

BlessD,

You right about this. Idolatry is a tough discussion because it seems other-worldly to people. It's taken me a long time to get a grasp on it from a Biblical and Godly point of view. It has become an exercise for me to try to look at things from the Lord's point of view because it has helped me so much to guard against the wiles of the Enemy. Most have all but forgotten about idolatry except as it applies to the Roman Catholic Church. This leaves most with their guard down.

Let me give a current example that applies to me to help explain where I am coming from on this issue. I'll start to translate from 'other-worldly' terms into modern day ones. It may seem random at the start, but if you follow it through I think you may start to see where I am coming from. It will take more than just one post.

Let's say you take a job. Let's say that it turns out that the company you went to work for is run by some pretty bad people. They are not downright criminal, but they are so greedy that they can't see straight to know how to conduct business in a fair an equitable manner towards customers or employees. Let's say you survive in this job for a longer period of time (more than 12 months). As you do your work in an honest and sincere way you find yourself confronted with situations that you did not create but that start positioning you to compromise your integrity (i.e. moral uprightness).

For example, your managers tell the customer they will get something in a certain timeframe. You don't find out what the customer has been told after you are assigned to do the work. You look at the work and realize, it's not possible.

What do you do here? You talk to your boss. Your boss says, we can't tell the customer differently. We already promised them we will get it done by that point in time.

So you go to work, knowing that it cannot be done by that point in time. You try not to tell the customer anything, but you are compromised. You have to work directly with the customer throughout the process of the work and from time to time they ask about the timeliness of the work. You never tell an outright lie, but you don't tell them what you shared with your boss about the impossibility of timely completion.

You didn't create the situation/environment, but now that you are in it you are compromised. In your heart, you intend to do your best. You would never do this of your own accord. So, your heart is good, but your situation is bad. Let's say that the work ends up failing as you anticipated. Now, you have done wrong to the customer.

Are you innocent in this situation? Why or why not?

Matt

P.S. I'm drawing out a point here about how people become environmentally compromised by a situation. It is relevant to this discussion. The choice of a job example is because a job is mandatory for most. The LC became mandatory in the same manner because people really thought it was the one true thing of God on the earth. There weren't options.

[blessD]

Thanks Matt,

The analogy explained it very well - I better understand where many are coming from on the idolatry point.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

...I'm also waiting for you to give some concise evidence that Witness Lee was under the influence of evil spirits from the outset of the recovery in the U.S....SC

SC,

Do you think Satan himself, as God's sworn archenemy does his work himself, or do you think he has worker bees (demons) to do his work for him? If the sins of Witness Lee, which can be traced back to the outset of the recovery in the US, are not due to the influence of the evil spirits sent forth by Satan himself, to what do you attribute this sinful behavior?

Satan is not omnipresent. He is not omniscient. He cannot and does not do his work alone. Does God have another enemy? Inquiring minds want to know.

Nell

[YP0534]

It does seem to me that someone who writes using unfamiliar terms or terms used in unfamiliar ways has an obligation to define those terms for the sake of their readers who otherwise may generally be put off by the unintelligible writing that results.

Sometimes, in a book, an author will even include something like a glossary to help with those terms which are intended by the author to have a meaning different from the ordinary definition.

At least, I think I may have seen that done somewhere.

Thanks for your helpful comments, SC.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I'm also waiting for you to give some concise evidence that Witness Lee was under the influence of evil spirits from the outset of the recovery in the U.S.

SC

I've heard many people say that they thought Witness Lee was repentant during the early years he was in the US (early 60's) about what had happened in Taiwan. As a result they claim that he was in a more blessed condition and even though he got off track later on, he was doing okay at that time.

If Lee was still up to his same ole' tricks during that window of time and there was no time in which 'fruits of repentance' were there would it make any difference in your mind?

What exactly would you consider to be 'concise evidence' of demonic influence for Lee? Give a hypothetical example.

Matt

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Matt

What exactly would you consider to be 'concise evidence' of demonic influence for Lee? Give a hypothetical example.

Oh, how about a report that someone saw something floating around in the room. I'm serious. I recently heard such a report from a woman about her husband, a psychologist, who was dealing with what he thought was a demon-possessed young woman.

Evil spirits are dark and scary. Your evidence better be dark and scary. Something that won't have to be spun to appear evil.


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Oh, how about a report that someone saw something floating around in the room. I'm serious. I recently heard such a report from a woman about her husband, a psychologist, who was dealing with what he thought was a demon-possessed young woman.

Evil spirits are dark and scary. Your evidence better be dark and scary. Something that won't have to be spun to appear evil.

SC

Can demonic activity be more subtle?

Matt

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

I've heard many people say that they thought Witness Lee was repentant during the early years he was in the US (early 60's) about what had happened in Taiwan. As a result they claim that he was in a more blessed condition and even though he got off track later on, he was doing okay at that time.

If Lee was still up to his same ole' tricks during that window of time and there was no time in which 'fruits of repentance' were there would it make any difference in your mind?

What exactly would you consider to be 'concise evidence' of demonic influence for Lee? Give a hypothetical example.

Matt

To All,

While I think that pursuing this in terms of "demons" is a waste of time, the underlying question as to whether Lee was ever anything more than soft-peddling during the 60s and early 70s has always been a significant issue for me.

So acting in an evil manner has now been promoted to all-out demon possession?

Even if you can make a case, we have moved far from the topic, which was describing how the LC was responsible for the failings of their children.

The examples of demonic influence in the scripture, OT and NT, were much more than just doing badly. The whole of the Jewish rituals, especially those of the Pharisees, was corrupted from what God had ordained. Surely that was influenced by Satan.

Nell has said, “Do you think Satan himself, as God's sworn archenemy does his work himself, or do you think he has worker bees (demons) to do his work for him?” On one hand, I agree. But when Satan throws his fiery darts at us and we respond to act according to them, we do not suggest that we have become Satan possessed. Demons effectively do the same thing. I am not denying actual demon possession. But it is not the norm. People follow the suggestions too easily for Satan or his demons to need to actually possess us very often.

Even when Jesus addressed Peter by saying "get thee behind me Satan" he did not put his hands on Peter and command that a demon come out.

I must protest that this has become everything we have cursed the LC for in terms of their constant mantras of "poor pitiful Christianity, Whore of Babylon Catholicism, demonic Judaism." We should now tie weights on them and throw them in the water. If they float, they are witches. If not, they are not guilty — but dead.

If we continue this folly, it will be without me in any part of this forum. I must say that this is becoming a dark alley that even I am beginning to fear. My desire is to help people see the error in the LC doctrines and teachings, to help people deal with the pains of their sufferings, and to help some extricate themselves from that system of errors.

I really questioned SC months ago when he slipped away from the BARM for a period. I may not have agreed with his position, but he had a point of order that even I would not accept at the time. This line of reasoning, although very different in character, is worse that what he was dealing with at the time. I have indirectly been accused of being in denial because I think this is terribly off-topic and much ado about nothing. I do not think that idolatry is meaningless or not a possible issue. But our discussion here is nothing more than a bunch of Pharisees pointing at the rest of the scum of society and pounding on our chests.

And the first harsh word back is proof of my point. I doubt that the people who should hear this are really listening. I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but I honestly believe that if you merely take offense instead of listening and considering, then you missed the point.

[Matt Anderson]

OBW,

Who ever said 'demon-possession'? You. That's it. Your introduction of this is your bad in the process of dialogue. No one else.

To be honest, I don't care whether you call out the demonic activity or not. We can focus on the specifics and the deeds and connect it to the underlying sins. Where there is sin, there is probably Satan's influence. So, if you can accept that then good enough. If you can't accept that then we have a real problem.

Let's be clear. It was Hope that started this line of reasoning at the beginning of the thread if you want to be factual about the introduction of influences from the dark side. He said, "remember there is an enemy". You didn't object to that.

He did this to deflect attention from some aspects of individual responsibility for sin. I started pushing on this fact by drawing out the issue of idolatry. Idolatry is a sin. It is a deed that each one of us can commit and must take responsibility for it when we do. If we take care of our sin, then God will protect us from the Enemy.

Matt

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by OBW

On one hand, I agree. But when Satan throws his fiery darts at us and we respond to act according to them, we do not suggest that we have become Satan possessed.

OBW, you are introducing an idea that has not been represented here. This is not a discussion about demon possession. I think the introduction of this into your argument is what you call a straw-man.

I am more than willing to drop the term demon or evil spirit and just say devil. I'm not into demonology or casting out demons, etc. That doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the enemy behind the scenes. These terms that SC jumped on were mainly introduced in the quotes I put out by Jessie Penn Lewis. The point of the quotes was not to define or focus on demons or evil spirits but to talk about deception.

The only reason to mention the devil behind the scenes is to keep the whole problem in perspective. The real problem is that behind idolatry is the devil. Witness Lee even told us this. Maybe someone knows where that is.

Thankful Jane

[SpeakersCorner]

MikeH,

Good balancing word.


SC

[YP0534]

I would again advocate that we attempt to keep this little corner of cyberspace as holy as possible.

I've never had much confidence about the long-term prospects, but, saints, seriously, can we at least just try to come back to the reality of Christ?

If localchurchdiscussions is now become the place to denounce all things Lee and Local Church as idolatrous and demonic, as opposed to merely heretical and cultic, I'm already packing my bags....