The LCS Factor

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by blessD

As a young victim of spiritual abuse by the misuse of authority in the LC, it seems somewhat irrelevant to read intellectual anecdotes and debate over its root causes. It might help understanding, but it does not help the pain. It might be akin to reading a psychology study of the mind of a serial killer, if your loved one was murdered by one. Clearly, we don’t want it to ever happen again. How can this be accomplished?

Hi dear BlessD,

You are truly BlessD. God is the only one who can really remove our pain. What actually happened can never be undone, but He can wipe away the tears and give comfort and strength to go on. We can also learn from what has happened and help others.

Sadly, there is no snap-your-finger prevention or some kind of anti-abuse vaccine available to prevent spiritual abuse. Those who have created or suffered in spiritually abusive environments have to come to an understanding of what happened and why. Then they can then be used by God to help others. The environment that hurt you and many others is still going on in the Local Churches today, so we really do need to see things in God's light and learn from them.

As in human families, abuse in the family of God is perpetuated by the way all the family members think and handle things. Abuse in God’s family is worse because God’s name is in the mix. Abusers believe God sanctions their abuse (yikes). The abused believe God is upset with them. The rest of the folks (which I think are the majority) just sit like hear-no, see-no, speak-no monkeys and hope it will all somehow get better.

God’s family is where we expected to find the love of God, instead so many of us at some point came face to face with cold, heartless, evil. Instead of true love, we had evil men playing “God cards” against us. This clearly isn’t what God intended.

The only explanation for how men could spiritually abuse other men and at the same time believe they are serving God is that they were comfortably functioning in the darkness of an idolatrous system of hierarchy. They believed that only the guy at the top would be accountable, so on they marched, trampling over the souls of men.

Those who perpetrate such abuse are men who have been caught in the devil’s snare of wanting something for themselves, whether it was prestige, recognition, a feeling of being unique and special to God in some way, or just a desire for power, even if it was just a little power. I'm not saying they were conscious of this motivation, but it was a clearly present. The fruit today testifies that there has been no light on such hidden sins of the fallen deceitful human heart and no repentance.

I fell into the trap on the abuser side of this equation because I wanted to please the brothers. I did things that hurt others as a result (such as, among other things, carrying reports to the brothers about them ... it wasn't a pure activity, but one that gave me some recognition for bringing the report ... shudder).

Of course there are always some who are not in either extreme. They tend to remain silent, keep their blinders on for self-protection, and try to conform. They may not experience direct abuse, but they have witnessed it at some time or the other.

The situation in the LC is an extreme development of this kind of evil. It can exist in lesser degrees if the same structural building blocks exist. We have to learn from all of this. We have to come out of her, all the way out, meaning each one of us needs to give up any way of thinking and practice that puts us in danger of abusing others (crossing others boundaries) or being abused (being run over.) One thing I haven't mentioned which probably has the strongest holding power over those in such a system is the role money plays. It’s importance should not be overlooked. When the hierarchical system is tied to income, you have a whole ‘nuther animal.

With everyone it boils down to a heart matter married with opportunity, which the devil is most happy to provide.

On the other hand, if we were on the abused end of things (I got in on that end too), then we need to realize that God DID NOT do this to us. I think in another post (when I get time) I will share an amazing experience I had in 2006 that showed me in a very tangible way how God feels about what happens to people who are abused.

The fact is that what happened to us was done by men under the control of the devil through their covetousness (idolatry, Col 3:5). If we are silent in the face of their abuse, we sin. We must speak up when abuse happens, for both our sake and for theirs.

As for those who escaped direct abuse but had knowledge it was transpiring. They need to end their silence and disobedience and expose the unfruitful works of darkness.

So, as believers in Christ, every one's protection from this happening again is to understand the nature of the beast and the danger we fall into if we don't submit ourselves to Christ alone, always being guarded about being ambitious or covetous of anything.

BlessD, we are in a unique situation today. We are actually seeing God come in to expose the devil and rescue people as more and more people begin to communicate. God will surely finish what he has begun. All kinds of people are reading these forums. Both abusers and abused are here, along with those who have watched abuse and sat silently by. God is using all of our honest communication to bring in His light.

I personally think the Lord wants to bring us all back to being just brothers and sisters in Christ, in relationships with one another without hierarchy. Whenever we talk like this, some start crying “we have to have leaders … we have to have structure… etc.” I ask anyone who wants to respond like this to be sure and long and hard at their motives in God’s light. I ask them to consider if money considerations play a role in their response. To say God cannot lead us without hierarchy is unbelief. I am not saying there is not a place for proper elders, etc. but our understanding of what that means needs a complete overhaul. (Another topic.) There should be NO hierarchy among the children of God.

I guarantee you there will be people functioning in every capacity in the body of Christ when He is given His rightful place of pre-eminence.

Thankful Jane

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Hi dear BlessD,
You are truly BlessD. God is the only one who can really remove our pain. What actually happened can never be undone, but He can wipe away the tears and give comfort and strength to go on. We can also learn from what has happened and help others........

Wow, thanks for your thorough reply on my concern and question. One of my thoughts for writing what I did is I have shared this site with my older daughter - a younger witness to the Christian deviations of the LC.

I have a hope this forum can be a productive, positive place for all generations and audiences to come and receive healing, answers, revitalization, and reconnection. I hope everyone who comes here will feel free to speak up without any leftover patterns of subordination, fear, power, and hierarchy getting in the way.

Yes, I too have repented (and continue to repent) for anything I did to hurt anyone while I was attempting to fit in or in my own sloppy way of refusing to fit in.

On an entirely different note, I have mentioned in several posts that I thought the environment was better in LC-OKC. I based this on my younger daughters life, attitude, spiritual walk, etc. However, I was told a couple of girls from her generation are currently lost in stripping and lesbianism. I was very sad to hear this. Going back to the #1 post on this thread - I believe it is the same pattern we see over and over again from generation to generation. I thought I should speak up to say maybe things are not "all better".

Thanks again, Thankful Jane, for your answer.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy: I'm not sure what you mean by this statement.

I'll make a comparison to this forum and the BARM. The BARM is an apologetics forum and I don't think they ever understood our desire to help people, and that this is the most sincere form of apologetics (my opinion). They seemed to want intellectual doctrinal debate without the people factor to "muddy" the water. I don't know this to be true, but it seems to me to be true, and that's the reason I post here instead. To "win" a debate in that arena is simply a "hello win column." To really win would be for someone who's hurting to be able to find the Lord again.

Originally Posted by Igzy

One thing you might need to understand is that some people cannot be ulitmately "helped" until their minds are convinced. Men tend to be that way. I know I am. Much of the problem with ex-LC men is that they hold conflicting concepts in one mind, causing inner conflict, the simplest being the "I'm supposed to be the the LC/I can't be in the LC" dichotomy. These people need emotional support, but they are not going to be set right until their minds are set right. Emotions are persuaded by sentiment; the mind is persuaded by facts. A solid logical argument, inspired of course by the Holy Spirit, goes a long way in these cases.

My turn…

Maybe there is a fine balance when getting involved in intellectual doctrinal debate. Discussing viable answers/facts, while avoiding the old familiar sense of sitting in yet another long, boring meeting listening to people that like to hear themselves talk – out-of-touch and not noticing they lost everyone an hour ago. Simply watching/listening for clues from the audience to see when it is time to quit “talking”.

To draw an analogy – a best practice in leading JAD (Joint Application Development) meetings is to keep everyone engaged. I must watch for subtle clues from attendees that they are losing focus and get the meeting quickly refocused and engaged. I couldn’t help but think about this example since I had to do a lot of it last week at work.

[Thankful Jane]

The following is some scriptural support for the idea that when God’s prophets are involved with money and where there are men lording it over other men in the church this sets the stage for spiritual abuse. The following verses may be a case spiritual abuse in the church that is recorded in the Bible:

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [throne]is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight
against them with the sword of my mouth.

Here are some things that stand out:

-- These verses are written to a church, and more specifically to those in that church who had the possibility of hearing (who were still faithful). Note that there are others in this church that the Spirit calls “them” (vs. 14, 15, 16).

-- The Spirit said that Satan was dwelling among them and that they had among them those who held the doctrine of Balaam and the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which God hates. (vs. 12, 13, 14,15)

-- Nicolaitanes means to subdue or conquer the people. This could mean there were some people lording it over others there and teaching this practice as doctrine. Satan’s seat or throne was there.*(v. 13, 15) This could possibly mean that Satan was exercising his authority through those practicing the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes. (*Some commentators say that the reference to Satan’s seat could have been made because there was in Pergamos a temple dedicated to the worship of Caesar and/or also because there was a Babylonian cult religious center there.)

-- In this church a brother, Antipas, was murdered, among them, where Satan dwells. The phrase “slain among you where Satan dwells” seems to be saying that Satan was at home among them and that Antipas was murdered among them. (If so this, would be major abuse among them.) (v. 13) Mystery Babylon the Great was filled with the blood of martyrs for Jesus. The RCC has martyred many for their witness to the truth. It is possible that those lording it over others were responsible for the death of Antipas. “… those who kill you think they do God service.” (Jn 16:2) (Some commentators say he could have been killed by the Romans for his witness.)

-- There was a prophet of God who became a false prophet and taught evil things for money. (v. 14)

-- God was correcting the audience of this letter for “having” such people in the church (the “them” who taught these things). He was telling the church to repent for “having” such ones. (In this letter he was not speaking to the “them.”)

-- God was about to come and fight against the “them” and was giving the church advance notice that they needed to repent. They needed to repent for listening to such teachings and allowing these things to be taught. They needed to reject their belief in such teachings, ones that resulted in people being conquered and becoming defiled.
Please note that the evils found in Mystery Babylon the Great are found here, including terrible abuse of the faithful (blood of the martyrs.)

Think about it. All of this was in a church. Too similar. These verses are like a sharp two-edged sword.

Thankful Jane

[Hope]

Dear Forum,

For some reason, my home computer has been shut out of the forum. Several days ago I prepared the following. Just as I was preparing to post it, I lost the link to the forum and it has not come back. Thus I am taking a few minutes at work to post this.

Quotes from Matt’s Posts,

Let's be clear. It was Hope that started this line of reasoning at the beginning of the thread if you want to be factual about the introduction of influences from the dark side. He said, "remember there is an enemy". You didn't object to that.

He did this to deflect attention from some aspects of individual responsibility for sin. I started pushing on this fact by drawing out the issue of idolatry. Idolatry is a sin. It is a deed that each one of us can commit and must take responsibility for it when we do. If we take care of our sin, then God will protect us from the Enemy.

That's fine with me and I will defend my position rigorously on this issue. I'll also challenge the likes of SC and Hope when the defense that is attempted is subpar.


Matt,

May I assume your reference to me as “the likes of” is linked to your thought that my motive for mentioning the enemy, (Satan, the Devil with his evil forces) was an attempt to deflect some aspects of individual responsibility for sin?
We all will appear at the judgment seat of Christ and will be required to take personal responsibility for how we walked. At that time, all our motives will be exposed. Many times we do not know what our motives are. In my original post which may have been the Genesis for all the back and forth, I thought my motive was based on a desire to help the people who have been so hurt, both children and parents. Blaming a brother or sister who did not agree with an edict from Anaheim etc, destroyed many a conscience. They were brought into a "it is your fault" mind set and many times their walk with the Lord was destroyed. I have learned to seek to protect believers, in, out or never heard of the lc, from excessive blaming introspection. That was what I thought was my motive. Maybe I have displayed tendencies to avoid personal responsibilities on the two forums and when we have talked. No good if I have.

Idolatry was not only among the Israelites but also among all the nations around them. We all must be on guard against idols. A little side bar, at one time in the recent 10 years I was a frequent speaker guest at another assembly. A brother from that place heard some messages on idols given here in NC. I was invited to give a week-end conference there on the matter of idols. Wow, did that ever change my popularity!! Yes, there is an enemy. He uses idolatry to attack our individual Christian life, our Corporate Testimony and our families.

Idolatry is linked to greed because the idol promises to satisfy the greed’s desire whatever that is. Men do not worship idols for nothing. There is a promise of getting the things one lusts for. If we do not put our greed on the cross, we are a sitting duck for the enemy to seduce us through idolatry. The idol’s worship and service will require us to sacrifice something and almost always it is our family and for believers it will include the Lord’s children. This is true whether the person is a Christian or in or not in a local church. Consider how many dear believers in the local churches were sacrificed in order to prove the loyalty of different ones. I was amazed as greedy, ambitious members denounced godly saints as a means to advance in the LCS. Why could they turn on John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon and others? Because they had been seduced to believe their greed, ambition for position could be fulfilled by sacrifices, the killing of the Lord’s servants and prophets. See 2 Kings 9:7, 'And you shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets , and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel. NASB

May I call for another deep breath and a step back? Matt, does have a vital point about idols. But I also think we all need a little more care lest we slay some of the genuine servants of the Lord. Consider the zeal but also care of Jehu, the destroyer of the House of Ahab and the priests of Baal. 2 Kings 10:23, "Search and see that there may be here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal." NASB

Again, if I have taken a position of avoiding personal responsibility please let me know. I would prefer to walk in the light.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Thankful Jane]

I believe we should pay close attention to the idea of the mystery of iniquity that Paul spoke about and to its development over time. From our vantage point centuries later we have the possibility of understanding something about this by looking at church history, including our own experience. I believe that the picture we see in the woman, Mystery Babylon the Great, is a picture of God's people caught in a system of idolatry.

As believers, we need to see this, not for the purpose of standing and pronouncing condemnations against a group of Christians or for slaying others with this truth, but for light on our own hearts because "coming out of her" is a heart matter. It is about personal obedience and absolute submission to Christ only. It is about each person learning to cling to Jesus only and each one following Him, not denying His name and keeping His pure word. It is so we can serve Him only and not serve other gods, so we can eat the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth and not the leavened bread of malice and wickedness. It is about being a participant in the new covenant where God Himself is writing His laws on each of our hearts and minds.

The following is taken from a commentary by Barnes on verse 2Th 2:7. I don’t believe anyone can argue successfully that the mystery of iniquity was not clearly at work among us in the Local Churches. Of course, it is at work in other places, but we need to look at where we were and learn:

For the mystery of iniquity - On the meaning of the word mystery ... It means properly what is hidden or concealed; not necessarily that which is unintelligible. The “mystery of iniquity” seems here to refer to some hidden or concealed depravity - some form of sin which was working secretly and silently, and which had not yet developed itself. Any secret sources of iniquity in the church - anything that tended to corrupt its doctrines, and to destroy the simplicity of the faith of the gospel, would correspond with the meaning of the word. Doddridge correctly supposes that this may refer to the pride and ambition of some ministers, the factious temper of some Christians, the imposing’ of unauthorized severities, the worship of angels, etc.

Doth already work - There are elements of these corruptions already existing in the church. Dr. Newton maintains that the foundations of popery were laid in the apostle’s days, and that the superstructure was raised by degrees; and this is entirely in accordance with the statements of the apostle Paul. In his own time, he says, there were things which, if not restrained, would expand and ripen into that apostasy. He has not told as particularly to what he refers, but there are several intimations in his writings, as well as in other parts of the New Testament, that even in the apostolic age there existed the elements of those corruptions which were afterward developed and imbodied in the papacy. Even then, says Dr. Newton, “idolatry was stealing into the church 1Co_10:14, and a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels.” (Col_2:18; see, however, my note on that passage.) “There existed strife and divisions 1Co_3:3, an adulterating and handling the word of God deceitfully 2Co_2:17; 2Co_4:2, a gain of godliness, teaching of things for filthy lucre’s sake 1Ti_6:5; Tit_1:11, a vain observation of festivals Gal_4:10, a vain distinction of meats 1Co_8:8, a neglecting of the body Col_2:23, traditions, and commandments, and doctrines of men Col_2:8, Col_2:22; compare 3Jo_1:9, “Diotrephes, who loveth to have the pre-eminence.” These things constituted the elements of the corruptions which were afterward developed in the papacy, and which are imbodied in that system. An eye that could see all, would even then have perceived that if there were no restraint, these incipient corruptions would grow up into that system, and would be expanded into all the corruptions and arrogant claims which have ever characterized it; compare 1Jo_4:3.

Thankful Jane

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

May I call for another deep breath and a step back? Matt, does have a vital point about idols.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Hope (and others),

Well said. I personally took a deep breath over the weekend! But, I don't think many think I have!!!

During my deep breath I thought about a few things. Many current and ex-LCer's don't have any real level of conception of the role of 'idols' in our modern context and especially when it relates to the christian setting.

I believe you have more education on this topic from the OT. I have studied it for a while. Why don't you and I toss it back and forth for a little bit. I think there is a lot we can put on the table for consideration. As I mentioned in my last post, let's let others be the judge. They can decide for themselves.

Whether people realize it or not, I'm not here to beat anyone up. I just believe that we have to really think about this in light of God's perspective which He establishes quite clearly in the Word of God even if it causes some reactions. We can work through the reactions too. Reactions to the content are welcome in my mind.

When I referenced "the likes of", it was two-fold:
1. I was reacting to the idea that there were exceptions in the LC and that your locality was one of them. Yes, I am saying reacting. Some of the reaction was fair and some of it was unfair on my part. Sorry.

2. I was also referring the idea that each thing that we hold on to from the LC must be closely inspected. I did not express this when I said, "the likes of", but it was part of my thought as I wrote. For example, how about "deputy authority" versus "spiritual authority". I've heard you talk about DEPUTY AUTHORITY being very bad, but it is built on top of Nee's conceptions of SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. What of "spiritual authority" are we holding onto? I'm not trying to go on a tangent. That is another thread.

But, each one of these conceptions of God and conceptions of how the church is supposed to operate that is not fully under the Lord can become a source and root cause of idolatry. Now, this kind of idolatry gets more subjective. I've been working on the more objective idolatry for the most part. Conceptions of God become idol based upon how we relate to it in our hearts. The idol is not the thing in itself, but how we relate to it.

What I did not use to understand, but makes sense to me now is that idolatry is about wrong relationship. We talk about the need for right relationship with God which is good. God asks us to be in right relationship to Him and our 'neighbors'. When we get into improper relationship to Him and our neighbors because we want (lesser form of greed) something that God hasn't given us then we start getting out of sorts with the Lord.

When we move into the heart level area of idolatry, it almost impossible to separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God, because it is a heart level issue. It's very difficult to judge. So, I'm guilty as charged of painting with a broad brush. I'm trying to bring into focus that the way the Lord sees idolatry and has shown by many examples is that it is extremely pervasive throughout all of Israel. I think this is still the case with the idea in mind that we are all Israelites as Paul says, but not according to fleshly birth.

As for the more objective aspects of idolatry it is a little easier to look at them. That's most of what I've been doing. I've been pressing on the more objective aspects of idolatry in the LC that we can see with our eyes. Yes, there are still some challenges in proving it out the satisfaction of others and there is a lot of resistance to the idea of even exploring it.

Part of the problem at this stage (on this thread) is that there are a number of people who don't even want to talk about it, even if we separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God.

I have a real hard time being willing to accept an unwillingness to address such an important subject. The most recent appeal is that we should stop talking about this because we want this forum to be more palatable to current LCer's. Are there any proposals for where we should discuss it if we want to preserve this forum?

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

Part of the problem at this stage (on this thread) is that there are a number of people who don't even want to talk about it, even if we separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God.

Matt,

The only person who really didn't want to talk about it was SC. I didn't hear anyone else say they don't want to talk about.

(Actually, if we could "talk" about it we would probably understand each other better. In this format it's often very hard to make ourselves understood even when we feel we've expressed ourselves well. Honestly, I often think we express ourselves better when we keep our posts short. Remember the great advice the father gave his son when reviewing his essays in A River Runs Through It? "Very good. Now make it half as long.")

Let me say that I do not think that it is unlikely that idolatry exists in the LC, nor do I think the word "idolatry" is inappropriate, nor do I think the subject is unworthy of discussion. I'm not opposed to Matt's burden.

I've just been throwing out some ideas from my perspective, mainly because when I hear the talk about idolatry it seems to me like a blunt instrument going "thud, thud, thud," and I respond more to dagger-like intellectual arguments. Perhaps I'm too "sophisticated." As Nigel Tomes made clear, not everyone responds to the truth delivered in the same way.

By all means carry on, Matt. I might learn something.

[SpeakersCorner]

Matt,

One of my main objections to your “idol talk” was the black-and-white aspect to it. You said that every single saint was tainted by idolatry. Your logic was that just being in that environment was all it took.

Well, what about Thyatira? Here’s a church that was steeped in idolatry and other evil practices yet the Lord says, “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets.”

Where in your assessment of the LC are “the rest of you” in the LC system?

I have other objections to your condemnation, but this one certainly deserves a response.


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I have other objections to your condemnation, but this one certainly deserves a response.

SC

The very fact that you take what I am saying as "condemnation" is part of the problem here. I am not condemning you. Your trying to 'paint' me into something I am not doing. I will admit to 'judging' (attempting to rightly assess deeds based on God's Word and what I know), but not unto personal condemnation. Also it is important to note that my judgment is on words and deeds, not intent.

I've been party to some bad things in my life. I don't condemn myself, because God doesn't condemn me. I repent when God shines the light in my heart and helps me to see the error of my deeds.

Why was it acceptable for Lee to point at RCC and say idols, idols, idols and it is not acceptable for me to point at the LC and say idols, idols, idols? (This is mostly rhetorical)

We will all be judged. All God's ways are judgment. He rightly divides between that which is holy and that which is profane. When it comes to us, those who believe in Jesus Christ we will be counted righteous in that day and granted mercy, but we will be judged.

Judgment unto condemnation is quite another thing. I am not doing this. I am judging, but not with condemnation in my heart. God is a consuming fire. He will burn up the wood, hay and stubble. A long time ago, I gave him permission to burn whatever he needed to burn in me. He still working on it because I am a pretty stubborn, hard-hearted, stiff-necked, strong-minded little fellow who needs a lot of heat and pressure to get some things through to my little pea-brain.

Let me be very honest, I believe that the fact that you take it this way (as me condemning you) is due to the very fact that you hold something precious about the LC. I'm not telling you that you are wrong to hold something precious about the LC. I am acknowledging the fact that you are doing so.

What is it that you hold precious? I'm not poking fun at you or trying to give you a hard time. As honestly as you can say it, what do you hold precious about the LC? (This too can be treated as rhetorical)

We've seen so much wood, hay and stubble from the LC that it is hard for me to understand why it is still held in such high regard? When I seen this kind of discussion run it's course before, I can remember hearing that it is the "good" things of the LC (aka don't throw the baby out with the bathwater) that some are trying to hold onto.

On your part, I've seen the repeated denial of the "proof" presented about Lee an the LC. You repeatedly say, there is no evidence. I would strongly recommend that you take some time to read Morris Fred's paper on the LC written in the late 60's/early 70's. You will see the patterns of the BB in Lee while he was in Taiwan. You'll see the utterly shocking fact that Lee was staying in close contact with his top lieutenants in Taiwan while he was here in the US (1960-1966) to reestablish his preeimence over the Taiwanese LC by the 70's. This is the very time that Lee was "under the blessing of the Lord and somewhat repentant" based on what I have heard from the likes of Bill Mallon.

This is why I am painting with black-and-white even though I know there are many shades of gray. We are hiding things in the gray that need the light of God shining on them. Again, I know I cannot shine the light. It's not my job. It is my job to point at the deeds and make some attempt to connect the dots to the Word of God. If the light shines in then praise God. If I'm wrong, then okay. Only I will suffer loss in this case.

I posit that some of the gray is where the idols lie. I think the easiest way to see this is to look at what it takes to hold on to only Christ. In your mind, what does it take to hold on to only Christ? Once you establish that, then you can look and see what else you are holding that goes beyond that. This is the kind analysis that will surface the idols. When you hold up the "gray" things against the Word of God the light begins to shine in and some portions of the "gray" thing turns black and other portions turn white. With God, there are no shades of "gray". The shades of "gray" are a thing of man.

I'm not pointing my finger at you specifically. Don't get offended with me. I'm not condeming you. In my heart, I don't judge you nearly as much as it may appear to you in these posts.

In recently addressing Balaam, we see an actual prophet of God who only spoke what God told him to speak but he did it for profit and personal gain. Is it not entirely possible that Lee was just like this? The fact that he had such high knowledge of the Word of God does not rule out the fact that he may well have been doing it for very wrong and selfish reasons (personal and family wealth). See 1 Peter 2 it's talking about christians (at least in part, see v20) and it shows that some can be overcome after they have come to know the Lord.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

Well, what about Thyatira? Here’s a church that was steeped in idolatry and other evil practices yet the Lord says, “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets.”

Where in your assessment of the LC are “the rest of you” in the LC system?

SC

What about Thyatira? Each church has differing conditions and differing judgments.

So, the question is which one is more applicable to the LC? Thyatira or Pergamos? Or is it one of the others?

It's not a relevant challenge to what is being said if you aren't going to lay claim to one of them being the actual condition of the LC. Do you think the LC was Thyatira? If so, why?

If you are speaking in the hypothetical and saying that it is possible to have a church condition that doesn't apply to everyone in the church and which God does not hold all responsible, then sure I agree with this. It appears that this is not the case in Pergamos.

So, which shoe best fits for the LC? It's quite possible for there to be multiple shoes that fit to some degree, but what's the best fit?

Matt