Love vs. Purity

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nearly every new denomination has begun because certain men of God desired to restore the church to its virgin "purity."... all wanted a "purity" of churchlife which apparently did not exist in the greater body of Christ, and so they started something new.

Brother, now you are starting to think, which makes you useless for the 'building up'. (Sorry, a little tongue-in-cheek humor there)

Originally Posted by Ohio

when should the leaders exercise love, tolerance, and forbearance, and when should the leaders decide to "cut off" that which is impure. ...Who determines what is evil? That is the difficult question which each and every church or group of churches must confront. As these denominations amass their own list of taboos (in their mind unforgivable sins), they become more exclusive and disconnected.

Looking back at my experience, it seemed as if "purity" was kind of positional: if you did whatever the local church leadership dictated, that was pure. If not, you were called "evil", "rebellious" and were cut off. "Pure" was whatever the leaders deemed it to be.

And purity from them was a moving target. Sports and television were once worldly and impure; now they are purified because current leadership says so. Drums and electrical instruments are either pure or impure depending on leadership's judgment. And so forth.

I would argue that the whole system is built on fear. That elder who physically struck you, Ohio, was merely channeling the fear which had been imposed on him. You were supposed to 'shepherd' someone under you, and to do the same. This abusive shepherding is presented as a kind of soul-purifying, cross-imposing duty of flock leadership. I remember one quote of WL in the "Elders Training" book, where he basically channeled the spirit of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12 and said that he was not here to help, or to release the elders, but rather to lay heavy burdens upon them. "Thus you shall say to this people who spoke to you, saying, 'Your father made our yoke heavy, now you make it lighter for us!' But you shall speak to them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's loins! 'Whereas my father loaded you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions.'"…

This is a hierarchical, fear- and power-based system masquerading as spiritual -- in my dictionary the very definition of "Babylonian". Funny how we ended up looking so much like the RCC that we had despised and fled from.

In the local churches, as long as we remained dutiful to leadership, this was our standing, our "purity" before God. This was our "positional sanctification", the basis of our faith and expectation. And the only room in this conversation for love is if today's purity expectations are met. As long as you obey current dictates of leadership you feel the love (i.e., approval); if not, watch how quickly it disappears. And occasionally even this ''love'' will be arbitrarily withdrawn, just to show you your place.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

"Pure" was whatever the leaders deemed it to be...And purity from them was a moving target. Sports and television were once worldly and impure; now they are purified because current leadership says so. Drums and electrical instruments are either pure or impure depending on leadership's judgment...

It reminds me of Paul's quote: "All things are pure to the pure". I think he was writing about foods (to the religious Jews a big issue), but he was making a larger point. Like with Jesus before, "It is not what is without, but what is within that matters".

But in the Lord's Recovery, with its unique "ground" and thus unique leadership, the so-called apostle of the age, aka God's present oracle, becomes the working standard of purity. Whatever Witness Lee deemed to be pure was pure, because Witness Lee was pure. No, he was not dispositionally pure; he was a sinner like us. But because God raised him up as the 'acting God' on Earth he was held to be positionally pure. "Even when he's wrong he's right", as the LRC saying went.

So obedience to WL was our own de facto standing of purity. WL was our covering; subservience to this ordained 'acting God' was our mark of purity. As mentioned before, I find this is all too similar to the ideas presented in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. An externally-derived and externally-enforced "unity" as the approved mark of the "in group" is clearly presented in those chapters as a worldly analog, a counterfeit, of true spiritual reality.

[Ohio]

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

[UntoHim]

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

It was my fault. I had some other tabs open ... usually a dictionary and Bible browser and an email site ... and decided to close them all and wind up my post ... and deleted the LCD tab by mistake. Unfortunately the "undo close tab" feature on Firefox does not include anything I have typed.

Since I'm not much of an original thinker, I try to find inspiration from others ... in this case aron's comments about "moving targets." The other problem I have is a bad memory, so I don't remember all what I wrote.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

I wish that was true. Ever since Office 2007, I can't get it to stop copying in a bunch of formatting stuff as meaningless gibberish. I now just copy my posts out to spell check then work back and forth to check them. It is a fristrating process. Before O2007, I always did my posts in Word.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

I wish that was true. Ever since Office 2007, I can't get it to stop copying in a bunch of formatting stuff as meaningless gibberish. I now just copy my posts out to spell check then work back and forth to check them. It is a fristrating process. Before O2007, I always did my posts in Word.

Often times, as an fyi, If I write a long post, I will click the CTRL + C to copy. Then if it does not go through or I lose it, it is still saved.

It has been a life saver many a time for me. But my mistake when I lost a post I wrote here recently was I think I hit the preview button and then got off the forum

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

Please re-post if you have the time. I'd like to read more of your views on this topic.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

Tushae! That happened to me yesterday as you know! Sorry for the chuckle... I think the saying "misery loves company' is true. That is why I chuckled.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Tushae! That happened to me yesterday as you know! Sorry for the chuckle... I think the saying "misery loves company' is true. That is why I chuckled.

Tushae??? Excuse your French!

But you must mean "Touche'"

And that's why I open numerous tabs while I post to make each of my posts as "perfect" as possible -- and that's what caused my problem in the first place -- and it has happened other times too!

And yes, in my misery, I do enjoy company! Thanks.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Methinks prolly we're the ones that have lost. Arrrgh!

[bearbear]

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

A video of underground churches in China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw

Here's a testimony of Christian persecution in North Korea, believers are so desperate that they meet in secret in pit toilets in the prison camp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDz...S5i8QI&index=2

In such an environment of persecution denominational differences simply have no room to form. Out of desperation the church is driven to love Jesus with all their heart, soul and mind in unity and to live and hang on every word that comes from the Creator of the universe.

If any of you are touched by these testimonies, here are two good Christian organizations I know of that support persecuted Christians around the world:

open doors USA - http://www.opendoorsusa.org/
voice of the martyrs - https://www.persecution.com/

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

What a great habit!

We all should learn this from the bear.

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

A video of underground churches in China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

That's not America. That's New York City!

Keep America beautiful. Eat a Pigeon for lunch!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

Like Watchman Nee observed : Christians lie.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

You're right how Christians were persecuted in China pales in comparison to what is going on in North Korea and other countries. Sorry I didn't mention it's probably more than 30 years ago though it doesn't take away from the fact it happened. It's more of a documentary of what revival can look like under moderate persecution and a lifestyle lived out of desperation for God.

I've heard stories from members of my own church who've met with house church leaders in china. It's true they consider a four hour worship meeting to be short. Regarding persecution it seems like the government doesn't care anymore as long as there is no trouble being caused.

Here's an interview with Pastor Samuel Lamb who detailed some of the persecution that happened in the 90s for those churches who refused to register with the government:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq8kzQZwPTY

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Brother, now you are starting to think, which makes you useless for the 'building up'.

Looking back at my experience, it seemed as if "purity" was kind of positional: if you did whatever the local church leadership dictated, that was pure.

And purity from them was a moving target.

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

Luther, who supposedly started the "recovery," thus becoming the first so-called MOTA, became keenly aware of the corruption in the priesthood around him. Being intensely sincere for the "purity" of religion, he went so far as to visit the Vatican in Rome, thinking that surely the "purity" he so longed for would be found among those closest to the "Holy See." Needless to say, the shock he encountered was rudely awakening. Thus his goal was to reform the mother church to her original state.

Fast forward his life, and we find brother Martin so entrenched in this same goal, that "love" for the brethren has been severely compromised. He and the Swiss leader Zwingli agreed on 14-1/2 of 15 critical items, yet he refused to offer the Swiss brothers the right arm of fellowship. His disdain for the Jews and the Anabaptists also reflects this point succinctly -- if your original goal is purity of the church, and you continue this path rigidly, you will end up loving none but your own.

John Darby also began with the lofty ideals of all brothers, without hierarchy, as a holy priesthood to God, yet, in his very core of thought, as evidenced by his first tract, he felt the unity of the believers was based on the common judgment of evil -- "if we all agree what is evil, then we will be one." Though he had an intense desire to serve the Lord in new found "purity," he imposed his will upon all the assemblies, and they were forced to judge all things as he did. Exclusivism at its very core is a judgment of evil based on the views of the leader.

History tells us that the "lynching" of Benjamen Newton, the leader of the Plymouth assembly, and George Muller, the leader of the Bristol assembly and founder of the orphanages, was based on a struggle for power and control by John Darby. Both Newton and Muller were both rivals that had to be eliminated, but the smokescreen of Brethren "purity," clouded the minds of Darby and his followers. Once Darby decided to judge these "evils," men like George Wigram wrote scathing tracts to destroy their reputations and warn all the other assemblies. What began as a move of the Spirit to return to church "purity" and simplicity of worship concluded as a narrow, mean-spirited, "loveless" society of brothers, with a succession of MOTAs on top.

Does any of this sound familiar?

.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Luther, who supposedly started the recovery and thus became the first so-called MOTA...

Ohio, Martin Luther was a sinner saved by grace, no better or worse than the rest of us. PLEASE STOP REPEATING LEE'S STORY OF LUTHER "STARTING THE RECOVERY". Luther NEVER said or even insinuated this and NEVER called himself a MOTA. In fact, he called himself a snow-covered piece of sh*t (real German translation). The MOTA thing was entirely Lee's fabricated mythology. If I am wrong, quote Luther. Don't quote Lee on Luther and attribute the quote to him. It's dishonest and unfair and misleading to those still stuck in the "recovery mindset", by giving credence to Lee's lies.

Sorry for yelling brother.

Ray

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Ohio, Martin Luther was a sinner saved by grace, no better or worse than the rest of us. PLEASE STOP REPEATING LEE'S STORY OF LUTHER "STARTING THE RECOVERY". Luther NEVER said or even insinuated this and NEVER called himself a MOTA. In fact, he called himself a snow-covered piece of sh*t (real German translation). The MOTA thing was entirely Lee's fabricated mythology. If I am wrong, quote Luther. Don't quote Lee on Luther and attribute the quote to him. It's dishonest and unfair and misleading to those still stuck in the "recovery mindset", by giving credence to Lee's lies.

Sorry for yelling brother.

Ray

Sorry NFNL, but I said "supposedly," and I AM communicating with former LC members who speak my slang. And I think the MOTA thing started with Nee. I am not giving credence to anyone's lies.

and .... IT'S MY THREAD AND I CAN WRITE WHAT I WANT TO.

Sorry for yelling bro.

[james73]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

Just putting it out there, but what about Jesus? Everything you say there points to Jesus: Spirit of God, religious corruption and hypocrisy, something afresh, purity, eventually deteriorating into a misguided pathway. JC quite nicely proves your hypothesis correct, in some respects.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

Just putting it out there, but what about Jesus? Everything you say there points to Jesus: Spirit of God, religious corruption and hypocrisy, something afresh, purity, eventually deteriorating into a misguided pathway. JC quite nicely proves your hypothesis correct, in some respects.

What do you mean "what about Jesus?" I'm not understanding your comments.

[james73]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you mean "what about Jesus?" I'm not understanding your comments.

I meant, does Jesus not fit your hypothesis very well too? You wrote:

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

When I read what you wrote there, I had in mind Jesus, not Luther, Darby or Lee. That's what I meant by "what about Jesus?". Jesus seemed to fit what you wrote perfectly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

When I read what you wrote there, I had in mind Jesus, not Luther, Darby or Lee. That's what I meant by "what about Jesus?". Jesus seemed to fit what you wrote perfectly.

The way Jesus took never deteriorated over time to display exclusive judgmentalism. He lived and walked by the Father in the way of love. Never once do we see Jesus struggling with others in order to dominate or lord it over them. He came to serve and to lay down His life for us. He would leave the 99 in order to find the lost one.

[awareness]

Purity can't be found or achieved. And love covers a multitude of impurities. If you have to be pure for me to love you then I will never be able to love you. God loves sinners, Jesus died for them. And when we love our neighbors we're loving sinners ... or impure ones.

Brotherly love is the only way to live with each other without killing each other.