Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

There was nothing easy in the local church. I eventually developed a consistent knot in my stomach from trying so hard. Seemed I couldn't give enough to Christ and the church. I was, in fact, working out my salvation. Easy-believism wasn't part of the local church when I was in it.

From my own experience I thought I was living a life pleasing to God in the LC because I had "works". I was attending Lord's day, Friday night and prayer meetings and serving youth on and off. However my heart was really for the world. My goal in life was to make money quickly so I could play video games for the rest of my life. Yet I knew and accepted that Jesus was real, so I still convinced myself that I had to be involved because I didn't want to end up in that 1000 year dark closet.

It wasn't until I left and fully surrendered my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ that I believe I became born again and a new creation. I could have stayed in the LCs all my life and lived in this deception, missing out on the beginning of a new transformation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It wasn't until I left and fully surrendered my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ that I believe I became born again and a new creation. I could have stayed in the LCs all my life and lived in this deception, missing out on the beginning of a new transformation.

I was born again via the living and operating word of God. I was instantly a new creation unrecognizable to my family and friends. My heart changed, along with my personality. I no longer lived a life in darkness. God gave me a love for Him, His word, and His people, which I never had before. After less than a year, however, I was struggling to follow the Lord by myself in a world contrary to God. One day I heard about being baptized in the Spirit. That night in bed I prayed fervently to receive this from the Lord. I was filled with the Spirit. Almost immediately after that, I was driving by the Cleveland meeting hall, and met the saints planting flowers in front on a Sunday afternoon. That was an answer to my prayer based on I Cor 12.13, "in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

bearbear, the churchlife which you and I left, was no longer recognizable to those of us who remember those early days. It was the Spirit of god who led me to salvation, and it was the Spirit who led me to the local church. Both were accompanied by great joy, and an enlightening of the scriptures. In between those early days and my final days in the LC's, was all the sad stories of Witness Lee and company usurping absolute control of the Recovery, elevating himself to a place of highest prominence, hiding a history of corruption, and attempting to destroy any and all who got in his way.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was born again via the living and operating word of God. I was instantly a new creation unrecognizable to my family and friends. My heart changed, along with my personality. I no longer lived a life in darkness. God gave me a love for Him, His word, and His people, which I never had before. After less than a year, however, I was struggling to follow the Lord by myself in a world contrary to God. One day I heard about being baptized in the Spirit. That night in bed I prayed fervently to receive this from the Lord. I was filled with the Spirit. Almost immediately after that, I was driving by the Cleveland meeting hall, and met the saints planting flowers in front on a Sunday afternoon. That was an answer to my prayer based on I Cor 12.13, "in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

bearbear, the churchlife which you and I left, was no longer recognizable to those of us who remember those early days. It was the Spirit of god who led me to salvation, and it was the Spirit who led me to the local church. Both were accompanied by great joy, and an enlightening of the scriptures. In between those early days and my final days in the LC's, was all the sad stories of Witness Lee and company usurping absolute control of the Recovery, elevating himself to a place of highest prominence, hiding a history of corruption, and attempting to destroy any and all who got in his way.

My grandma had similar stories of her experience in the LCs in the 50s and 60s in Taiwan. I wrote a blog post about some of the stories here:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-lee-were.html

It would have been awesome to be there with her and to be part of the church-life you experienced.

It seems like whenever there is a good thing born of the Holy Spirit, Satan always focuses his attacks on this work. All Satan needs is a little opening. He knows if he can tempt a church leader into obeying his temptation, he'll have the legal right to control him if he doesn't repent (Romans 6 says we are slaves of the one we obey).

Whenever a spiritual leader has entered in the kingdom of darkness it seems like the whole congregation is often doomed if he was the only man in charge. Perhaps that's why popery was not encouraged in the early church, instead they had a plethora of leaders and apostles.

I think that's why the apostle James says not many of us should be teachers because we'll be held to a higher standard (James 3:1). This is something that scares me personally because my church is giving me more and more responsibility for youth ministry. I try to pray often that God will not let me yield to temptation but deliver me from the evil one so that I will never stumble my sheep the way Witness Lee did. It's also why we should pray for our church leaders and pastors. They need every bit of help they can get.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It seems like whenever there is a good thing born of the Holy Spirit, Satan always focuses his attacks on this work. All Satan needs is a little opening. He knows if he can tempt a church leader into obeying his temptation, he'll have the legal right to control him if he doesn't repent (Romans 6 says we are slaves of the one we obey).

Whenever a spiritual leader has entered in the kingdom of darkness it seems like the whole congregation is often doomed if he was the only man in charge. Perhaps that's why popery was not encouraged in the early church, instead they had a plethora of leaders and apostles.

The biggest danger to the church of God are her leaders. The ones who are most blessed by god, are the ones we should fear the most. The ones who appear to be the most influential and fruitful, are the same ones who have the potential to do the most damage.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The biggest danger to the church of God are her leaders. The ones who are most blessed by god, are the ones we should fear the most. The ones who appear to be the most influential and fruitful, are the same ones who have the potential to do the most damage.

I've learned through this that we should pray for our pastors and leaders. Every now and then I pray to God that our church leaders will not yield to temptation and to give them a spiritual covering of protection.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My grandma had similar stories of her experience in the LCs in the 50s and 60s in Taiwan. I wrote a blog post about some of the stories here:

If your grandma is still living, perhaps she knew of the events Richard Chi wrote about (in Chinese). Basically in the 50's church property in Taipei was used to pay Lee family debt (another failed business venture). After what apprently happened in the Philippines and Taiwan, he wasn't well-received which led to the 1962 World's Fair in Seattle.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Terry

If your grandma is still living, perhaps she knew of the events Richard Chi wrote about (in Chinese). Basically in the 50's church property in Taipei was used to pay Lee family debt (another failed business venture). After what apprently happened in the Philippines and Taiwan, he wasn't well-received which led to the 1962 World's Fair in Seattle.

Pretend for the moment that it's not bearbear talking but your token Lordship Salvation + Calvinist theologian who is analyzing Witness Lee's life from his point of view:

For one to be born again of the Holy Spirit, he must be willing to surrender every area of his life under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and by doing so his heart will become the good earth ready for the divine seed to grow to its full measure. It's possible that Witness Lee may have surrendered many things, but withheld the Lordship of Jesus Christ over his self-ambition, money and the desire to see his sons succeed. Under this definition he may never have been born again, but Satan would continue to deceive him to think that he is.

Now looking back at many of the Life Studies he authored and some of the conferences he held you might think that his speaking was very anointed. However it's happened in the past where the Holy Spirit fell on people who were not obeying God such as Saul and they would prophesy with the Spirit of God on them. This is what Lee came to coin as the "economical" Spirit. My theory is that God allowed this because He loves the brothers and sisters meeting in the LCs and wanted to feed them regardless of Witness Lee's state.

My Grandma once told me a true christian would never live in sin because the spirit of God in them would bother them so much that they would eventually repent. I've experienced this many times after my born again experience, including recently on this forum. When I got into an unhealthy argument with some on the forum earlier, I felt no peace or rest in my soul and was instantly driven to repent so I could find peace again.

Now place yourself in Witness Lee's shoes. Could any of you really do the same things he did without repentance? How long could you live with the shame of using church funds to pay off your debt, pilfer the life savings of saints in a money laundering scheme, overlook your son forcing himself on women in your ministry etc? Would any of you have the gall to proclaim yourself to be the MOTA and have no shame?

It's possible Witness Lee was never born of the spirit of God until maybe the end of his life where he mouthed an attempt at repentance. The reason why so many of us here and elsewhere who've left the LCs have become so disgusted with the debacles produced from Witness Lee is because we have the spirit of God inside us! The Holy Spirit hates sin and cannot stand it. A sign that witnessing sin grieves you is a sign that you are born again because the Holy Spirit is grieved by unrepentant sin.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's possible Witness Lee was never born of the spirit of God until maybe the end of his life where he mouthed an attempt at repentance. The reason why so many of us here and elsewhere who've left the LCs have become so disgusted with the debacles produced from Witness Lee is because we have the spirit of God inside us! The Holy Spirit hates sin and cannot stand it. A sign that witnessing sin grieves you is a sign that you are born again because the Holy Spirit is grieved by unrepentant sin.

Possible, but highly unlikely. The idea that WL was not born again is off-the-charts far-fetched for anyone who witnessed his preaching. If he was not a Christian, then I'm completely lost and don't understand anything.

Lee's emphasis was imbalanced, but he was not fundamentally wrong. He believed the gospel. Although he chose to focus on more esoteric things, I don't think he ever lost sight of the fact that Christ was his Savior.

In one sense, Lee was similar to Austin-Sparks, in that he chose to emphasize "deeper" things of the inner life. There is room for that. No one condemns Austin-Sparks for it. Lee went off the deep end (pun intended) with it, but that doesn't mean it was essentially wrong. All things in their measure.

Lee will be in the heavenly kingdom. He was flawed, like the rest of us. But he still lived for Christ with his mind fully persuaded. Not excusing his flaws, just emphasizing God's grace and mercy.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Now place yourself in Witness Lee's shoes. Could any of you really do the same things he did without repentance? How long could you live with the shame of using church funds to pay off your debt, pilfer the life savings of saints in a money laundering scheme, overlook your son forcing himself on women in your ministry etc? Would any of you have the gall to proclaim yourself to be the MOTA and have no shame?

I guess my previous post requires I comment on this as well. I think the answer to your question is that Lee did not look at these things the way you do. He probably rationalized all of them away. This was based in his deep conviction that he was a man of destiny, for whom--practically speaking--the rules themselves existed, and so could be adapted.

In his defense--and I guess in the defense of current leaders--he did not ask for such a mindset. It was passed onto him by a mentor he dared not question. That is how such a baffling mental stronghold can get formed.

The question is, where did Nee get it?

[Cal]

In short, Lee's view of himself and his movement was "Too Big to Fail," thus a whole different set of rules existed for him and it.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In his defense--and I guess in the defense of current leaders--he did not ask for such a mindset. It was passed onto him by a mentor he dared not question. That is how such a baffling mental stronghold can get formed.

The question is, where did Nee get it?

In the same way that the Apostle Paul imparted his anointing via the laying on of hands to Timothy (2 Tim 1:6), I believe that evil spirits can also generationally influence a leader's disciples once they come to obey the same temptations that stumbled their predecessors.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My Grandma once told me a true christian would never live in sin because the spirit of God in them would bother them so much that they would eventually repent. I've experienced this many times after my born again experience, including recently on this forum. When I got into an unhealthy argument with some on the forum earlier, I felt no peace or rest in my soul and was instantly driven to repent so I could find peace again.

With all due respect to your grandmother, there are many exceptions to this rule. Elvis Presley comes to mind. He loved God and would sing gospel and love songs to the Lord. (We had this CD.) Yet he later became swallowed up in the sinful indulgences of stardom. So Elvis was never born again, nor saved?

bearbear, many of us were also idealistic in our younger days ... and judgmental. I have heard that a Christian could never commit suicide, yet a close friend of mine in the LC did just that not too long after I left. He loved the Lord and spoke the gospel to all his friends and family. Will he then go to hell for such a massive failure on his last day on this earth?

Shortly after I got saved, I visited a brother who was filled with love and joy. He greeted me with a big hug when I first walked in his door. I felt so special in his presence. He loved the word and was sharing with us. About an hour or so later, he sheepishly asked to be excused to go out smoke a cigarette. I thought how could this be? Well ... buddy ... wake up, were not perfected yet, but we are on a wonderful journey!

Things happen. The Christian life is not perfect. God is much bigger than we are. We all are prone to failure. Who is without sin? So we have nothing to boast in but the Lord who loves us and has saved us.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With all due respect to your grandmother, there are many exceptions to this rule. Elvis Presley comes to mind. He loved God and would sing gospel and love songs to the Lord. (We had this CD.) Yet he later became swallowed up in the sinful indulgences of stardom. So Elvis was never born again, nor saved?

My grandma is still a free gracer and she told me this when I was discussing Lordship salvation with her haha.

Gonna put my LS+C hat on again:

We never know what happens before someone dies. It's possible the Holy Spirit will convict everyone to repentance before they die. Jesus said he would not lose anyone that belonged to him. Saying this I also realized It's possible WLee was born again and that's why he was driven to repentance at the end of his life.

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear, many of us were also idealistic in our younger days ... and judgmental. I have heard that a Christian could never commit suicide, yet a close friend of mine in the LC did just that not too long after I left. He loved the Lord and spoke the gospel to all his friends and family. Will he then go to hell for such a massive failure on his last day on this earth?

Shortly after I got saved, I visited a brother who was filled with love and joy. He greeted me with a big hug when I first walked in his door. I felt so special in his presence. He loved the word and was sharing with us. About an hour or so later, he sheepishly asked to be excused to go out smoke a cigarette. I thought how could this be? Well ... buddy ... wake up, were not perfected yet, but we are on a wonderful journey!

Things happen. The Christian life is not perfect. God is much bigger than we are. We all are prone to failure. Who is without sin? So we have nothing to boast in but the Lord who loves us and has saved us.

Cigarette smoking is one thing, but whatabout sins that involve hurting your brother or sister deeply? If this brother went and set up a money laundering operation to defraud saints of money would that be okay?

I guess at what point do we draw the line? What if Ron Kangas pulled out a machine gun and started mowing all the FTTA grads down during the winter training? Could we still accept him as a child of God and brother in Christ if he didn't repent and continued his murderous rampage?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With all due respect to your grandmother, there are many exceptions to this rule. Elvis Presley comes to mind. He loved God and would sing gospel and love songs to the Lord. (We had this CD.) Yet he later became swallowed up in the sinful indulgences of stardom. So Elvis was never born again, nor saved?

Another perhaps more sadder perspective on this is provided by the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:20-21
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.