Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

So 99.9% of people are Lake of Fire bound?

It must be more than that since I never met any who have plucked out their eyes or cut off their arms.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It must be more than that since I never met any who have plucked out their eyes or cut off their arms.

I give the most credence to 2.5% which is from Howard Pittman's testimony which reads to me as one of the more credible accounts. This implies about 10% of Christians are born again if you divide by 1/4 since about one quarter of the population self identifies as Christian.

This number seems realistic since about this ratio of Christians seem to have surrendered their life to Jesus from my personal experience. This is what I hope for but maybe I'm biased for the sake of my own sanity. Regardless Jesus made it sound like it wouldn't seem like a whole lot and if it turns out that way we can't really blame him because he warned us.

According to my current theological understanding if you are not free of porn you cannot enter heaven. Given that so many men are, just on the basis of this one addiction alone, many will not make it if they die without overcoming this addiction by the power of the blood of Jesus.

Jesus of course was giving us an idea of the extreme measures we have to take to be free of sexual immorality. We don't have to pluck our eye out but we can go to other extremes like move our computers to the living room and practice accountability partners. But on a literal level I don't think he was wrong about it either.

It's actually not as hard as it sounds because our flesh is like a monster which requires food to survive. All you have to do is stop feeding it and feed your spirit instead. In the beginning it is hard because the monster will be hungry and ask you for food. You just keep ignoring that thing and run to Jesus and others who call on his name out of a pure heart instead. Eventually it will die and we will realize only Jesus could ever satisfy us. Satan started out as a serpent in Eden but ends as a huge dragon in revelation. That's because someone's been feeding that sucker with their free will. In the battle of flesh vs spirit the one who wins is the one we choose to feed the most.

If we stumble we don't give up but confess our sins and keep trying and call on the Lord to save us. The Christian life is compared to warfare in the bible so we should expect grenades to blow up in our faces from time to time.

Another thing that helped for me was to have faith in the verse that says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Paul said he had become a spectacle to angels. There are invisible beings who are always watching us, we are never alone even when we think we are. Not only that but Sin always starts from a thought in our mind so we have to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Jesus. Rebuke every temptation that comes into your mind. Remember that Jesus lives in you. Don't do anything you wouldn't be comfortable if Jesus was holding your hand, because he's even closer to you than that.

All the tips of how we can become free from sin and slaves to Christ is in the holy bible. We just have to learn to wield it as a weapon against the enemy's attacks. Without the Spirit and the word we don't stand a chance because we were created to be lower than the angels. But greater is He who is in us than the one in the world. It just takes faith!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I give the most credence to 2.5% which is from Howard Pittman's testimony which reads to me as one of the more credible accounts. This implies about 10% of Christians are born again if you divide by 1/4 since about one quarter of the population self identifies as Christian.

This number seems realistic since about this ratio of Christians seem to have surrendered their life to Jesus from my personal experience. This is what I hope for but maybe I'm biased for the sake of my own sanity. Regardless Jesus made it sound like it wouldn't seem like a whole lot and if it turns out that way we can't really blame him because he warned us.

I just don't see how you can say that you have surrendered all of your life to Jesus, when you still have not "left all" to follow Him. Neither have you taken to heart the Lord's command to sell all. Following this, the Lord tells Peter about leaving homes, wives, families, grandmas, and children for the sake of the kingdom of God. He also compares this to eternal life in the coming age.

You are also living in the Bay Area of NoCal, which surrounds the present day Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't see how realistic it is that you would extrapolate these statistics of your limited experience there to the rest of the inhabited earth.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just don't see how you can say that you have surrendered all of your life to Jesus, when you still have not "left all" to follow Him. Neither have you taken to heart the Lord's command to sell all. Following this, the Lord tells Peter about leaving homes, wives, families, grandmas, and children for the sake of the kingdom of God. He also compares this to eternal life in the coming age.

You are also living in the Bay Area of NoCal, which surrounds the present day Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't see how realistic it is that you would extrapolate these statistics of your limited experience there to the rest of the inhabited earth.

My understanding is Jesus didn't say it was a prerequisite for eternal life but just added it to the list because eternal life is the greatest gift, but if the Spirit leads you to go you still have to obey.

God has called me to minister to the youth here and I have received quite a few confirmations of that. He has also perfectly equipped me to feed them because I can relate to their life experience and love them instead of judge them because I know their struggles. If God calls me elsewhere I am willing to go. I have become pretty detached from this world. Still It wouldn't be easy but I know God's grace is sufficient.

The disciples also had to go through a training period with Jesus. It probably wouldn't hurt to get some experience here before I go to some remote village in Africa. Also there are probably fewer true Christians in rich countries than there are in poor countries where folks are desperate for Jesus. I still see a lot of opportunities for ministry here to wake up folks to love Jesus with all their heart. If they believe in Jesus already and the authority of God's word that is a huge stepping stone to work from. My pastor said wisely that One person who loves Jesus with all their heart is more useful than a thousand lukewarm christians. Jesus throws out the flavorless salt because it's useless.

My goal is to bring the flavor back to that salt!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's actually not as hard as it sounds because our flesh is like a monster which requires food to survive. All you have to do is stop feeding it and feed your spirit instead. In the beginning it is hard because the monster will be hungry and ask you for food. You just keep ignoring that thing and run to Jesus and others who call on his name out of a pure heart instead. Eventually it will die and we will realize only Jesus could ever satisfy us.

If only a couple people out of every hundred are truly born again, and have starved their flesh of every lust, then it sounds a lot more difficult then you are letting us on to believe. Personally I would question whether even 2% can make it into the kingdom for reasons I mentioned before.

I think we should tell everyone about how truly difficult it is to enter heaven. It seems to me that if more people knew the real facts about how many others have failed in their best attempts to live by faith, then they would not even have started on the journey. If, as you say, most Christians have not truly repented, then why even try?

Have you ever considered how all the evangelists on earth have failed in their message? They continually emphasize how by faith the blood of Jesus takes away all our sins, while they should be informing us of the demand to depart from unrighteousness, how your fruit must be a strong evidence of your being born again, that we should not attend funerals (let the dead bury the dead,) and so forth.

If one is not willing and able to meet all the demands of scripture, then that one should not even be allowed to hear the gospel, since the Lord has told us that "no one who puts his hand to the plow is fit for the kingdom of God."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If only a couple people out of every hundred are truly born again, and have starved their flesh of every lust, then it sounds a lot more difficult then you are letting us on to believe. Personally I would question whether even 2% can make it into the kingdom for reasons I mentioned before.

I think we should tell everyone about how truly difficult it is to enter heaven. It seems to me that if more people knew the real facts about how many others have failed in their best attempts to live by faith, then they would not even have started on the journey. If, as you say, most Christians have not truly repented, then why even try?

Have you ever considered how all the evangelists on earth have failed in their message? They continually emphasize how by faith the blood of Jesus takes away all our sins, while they should be informing us of the demand to depart from unrighteousness, how your fruit must be a strong evidence of your being born again, that we should not attend funerals (let the dead bury the dead,) and so forth.

If one is not willing and able to meet all the demands of scripture, then that one should not even be allowed to hear the gospel, since the Lord has told us that "no one who puts his hand to the plow is fit for the kingdom of God."

I guess it depends what type of Christians you hang around with. I tend to stick to evangelicals like David Wilkerson and Francis Chan who have been preaching this message all their life.

All you need to do is abide in Christ and his words by putting them into practice. Let God work on your heart and the rest will follow. Spiritual growth is organic. We all start out as babies. I'd never expect my 6mo old daughter to start running when she can barely crawl.

That said, this is a sermon which touches on so many issues you bring up which are all really good questions the Christian community needs to ask itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havd_RVXOEM

[Cal]

Salvation by faith alone is proven by the thief on the cross. Do you think he had overcome all his shortcomings? No. He reached out in desperate faith and faith alone and was promised paradise with the Lord.

Not overcoming porn before one dies, as much as anyone should do that, is not an unforgivable sin. There is only one unforgivable sin--blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And that sin boils down to the ultimate rejection of truth. And anyone who has received the Lord can no longer ultimately reject the truth because the truth, the Spirit of Truth, has been joined to their inner being, i.e. part of their being is now truth.They are no longer their own. They are chosen, bought, redeemed, they are sanctified, they are glorified. That's what Romans says.

It seems the only one lacking faith around here is bearbear. Who seems to think in some cases God is not able to keep that which we've committed to him concerning that day. You need an infusion of faith, son.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Salvation by faith alone is proven by the thief on the cross. Do you think he had overcome all his shortcomings? No. He reached out in desperate faith and faith alone and was promised paradise with the Lord.

Not overcoming porn before one dies, as much as anyone should do that, is not an unforgivable sin. There is only one unforgivable sin--blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And that sin boils down to the ultimate rejection of truth. And anyone who has received the Lord can no longer ultimately reject the truth because the truth, the Spirit of Truth, has been joined to their inner being, i.e. part of their being is now truth.They are no longer their own. They are chosen, bought, redeemed, they are sanctified, they are glorified. That's what Romans says.

It seems the only one lacking faith around here is bearbear. Who seems to think in some cases God is not able to keep that which we've committed to him concerning that day. You need an infusion of faith, son.

The thief's story is very touching if you meditate on what he said and how Jesus responded.

He defended Jesus on the cross by saying he and the other sinner deserved their punishment but Jesus was righteous and did not. Then he said to Jesus "remember me when you come into your kingdom!"

The thief expected to get his punishment in hell, he prepared in his heart to go there. All he wanted Jesus to do was to maybe put in a good word for him to his Father, he wasn't expecting much.

The thief humbled himself. These are the words of a man who has let everything go in his life and fully surrendered his heart.

Pride comes before the fall but honor before humility. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. It's a reminder to stay humble so God can extend mercy and grace to us and boy did Jesus do that when he looked at him and said

"Truly truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Salvation by faith alone is proven by the thief on the cross. Do you think he had overcome all his shortcomings? No. He reached out in desperate faith and faith alone and was promised paradise with the Lord.

Igzy, did you not know that Jesus was in extraordinary pain and shock at this point. Most certainly He was suffering from the horrible effects of repeated concussions, and perhaps early stages of chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

So we should not read too much into that story of the "thief" on the cross next to Jesus. Remember that robber did not properly repent for his sins, and live a faithful life in Christ, crucifying all the lusts of his flesh. Jesus probably did not hear both robbers on the other crosses reproach Him and mock Him, as the gospel writers Mark and Matthew record.

We all know that mockers and revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God, so this thief could not possibly enter into eternal life.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Igzy, did you not know that Jesus was in extraordinary pain and shock at this point. Most certainly He was suffering from the horrible effects of repeated concussions, and perhaps early stages of chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

So we should not read too much into that story of the "thief" on the cross next to Jesus. Remember that robber did not properly repent for his sins, and live a faithful life in Christ, crucifying all the lusts of his flesh. Jesus probably did not hear both robbers on the other crosses reproach Him and mock Him, as the gospel writers Mark and Matthew record.

We all know that mockers and revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God, so this thief could not possibly enter into eternal life.

Perhaps he was an immaculate thief and was born without sin, like Mary. That would explain Jesus letting him into paradise.

Encephalopathy! Nice.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Igzy, did you not know that Jesus was in extraordinary pain and shock at this point. Most certainly He was suffering from the horrible effects of repeated concussions, and perhaps early stages of chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

So we should not read too much into that story of the "thief" on the cross next to Jesus. Remember that robber did not properly repent for his sins, and live a faithful life in Christ, crucifying all the lusts of his flesh. Jesus probably did not hear both robbers on the other crosses reproach Him and mock Him, as the gospel writers Mark and Matthew record.

We all know that mockers and revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God, so this thief could not possibly enter into eternal life.

The word needs to be handled carefully, with humility and allowing the Spirit of God to speak to us during. It's possible to take Jesus at his word and still make everything work. That's why we need the Spirit of God to guide us to truth because to take Jesus at his word would be insane when held against our human wisdom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havd_RVXOEM

[bearbear]

At the end of Matthew, Jesus gives the great commission. He doesn't tell his disciples to convince people of the status of his deity and his work on the cross, instead he tells them to make disciples of Christ and to teach them everything Jesus commanded them to do. There is still an expectation that we take Jesus' commands seriously.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Jesus clearly said unless you are willing to take up your cross, give up your life, you cannot be my disciple. Jesus puts a high demand on discipleship, yet that's what he wants. This is the message we should be including in the gospel.

Ohio, what you're pointing to may have a lot of truth to it. A lot of people meet Jesus at the door to eternity expecting to get in but they can't. The scenario you described perfectly fits this narrative.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havd_RVXOEM

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The word needs to be handled carefully, with humility and allowing the Spirit of God to speak to us during. It's possible to take Jesus at his word and still make everything work. That's why we need the Spirit of God to guide us to truth because to take Jesus at his word would be insane when held against our human wisdom.

That's exactly what we have been trying to tell you.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Salvation by faith alone is proven by the thief on the cross. Do you think he had overcome all his shortcomings? No. He reached out in desperate faith and faith alone and was promised paradise with the Lord.

Actually, an unclear example.

The thief was about to die. His belief, though of uncertain ability to be sustained over a long period of time, was sufficient for the short time he knew he had to live. And he believed for it.


So the problem becomes whether believing enough at one point in time translates into:

1. A free pass for the future because salvation is by grace alone.
2. A free pass to eternal life, but not necessarily to reward or avoiding some level of cost (not a Catholic perdition).
3. A step in the right direction which, if maintained at a sufficient level (that we probably are incapable of defining) then when we die we will find ourselves on the right side of the "heaven/hell" divide . . . otherwise eternity will be really warm.

In other words, under virtually any analysis of salvation that we have undertaken here, the thief gets in. But if his result had been that suddenly the Romans realized they had the wrong guy and helped him down, worked to heal his wounds, and sent him on his way, what would his life have been like afterward? We don't know. We would like to think that he would remain faithful. But it may not be so. So where does he fall out under those three scenarios (or any other we might throw out there) in that case?

In other words, the thief does not possess enough characteristics common to that of a healthy, 21st century person who manages to live another 50 years after some kind of serious encounter with God to provide a definitive answer.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, an unclear example.
...
In other words, the thief does not possess enough characteristics common to that of a healthy, 21st century person who manages to live another 50 years after some kind of serious encounter with God to provide a definitive answer.

I think you guys are over-analyzing.

Look, if there was any chance that salvation wasn't eternal then do you think God would deliver his message in a way they gave anyone but fringe nuts the idea that it is eternal? But a huge portion of his people do believe it's eternal. Why? Because there is a whole bunch of Biblical evidence that it is! Don't you think God knew how that would be interpreted?

What's worse, believing salvation is eternal and finding out it isn't, or believing it isn't and finding out it is? Obviously it's those believing the first option that have the big problem. So that being the case it stands to reason that God would not give people any reason to believe the first option. But he does. That tells me something.

God isn't trying to trick us. Salvation isn't a puzzle. He isn't trying to keep us guessing to keep us on our toes. What kind of God do you guys know, anyway? I believe in a God who wants to save people, not in one who is trying to trip them up.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think you guys are over-analyzing.

Look, if there was any chance that salvation wasn't eternal then do you think God would deliver his message in a way they gave anyone but fringe nuts the idea that it is eternal? But a huge portion of his people do believe it's eternal. Why? Because there is a whole bunch of Biblical evidence that it is! Don't you think God knew how that would be interpreted?

What's worse, believing salvation is eternal and finding out it isn't, or believing it isn't and finding out it is? Obviously it's those believing the first option that have the big problem. So that being the case it stands to reason that God would not give people any reason to believe the first option. But he does. That tells me something.

God isn't trying to trick us. Salvation isn't a puzzle. He isn't trying to keep us guessing to keep us on our toes. What kind of God do you guys know, anyway? I believe in a God who wants to save people, not in one who is trying to trip them up.

God wants us to receive his free gifts by his definition of "faith" not ours.

Human wisdom defines something being free as something you don't work for.

God's wisdom defines something also being free if you receive it by faith which comes by fully trusting in him and his word with all our heart and not our circumstances until the end.

God is kind of a troll when you think about it. This kind of thing is set up to stumble folks who try to tackle his expectations with human wisdom of which I was one, so I'm not pointing any fingers

http://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think you guys are over-analyzing.

Look, if there was any chance that salvation wasn't eternal then do you think God would deliver his message in a way they gave anyone but fringe nuts the idea that it is eternal? But a huge portion of his people do believe it's eternal. Why? Because there is a whole bunch of Biblical evidence that it is! Don't you think God knew how that would be interpreted?

What's worse, believing salvation is eternal and finding out it isn't, or believing it isn't and finding out it is? Obviously it's those believing the first option that have the big problem. So that being the case it stands to reason that God would not give people any reason to believe the first option. But he does. That tells me something.

God isn't trying to trick us. Salvation isn't a puzzle. He isn't trying to keep us guessing to keep us on our toes. What kind of God do you guys know, anyway? I believe in a God who wants to save people, not in one who is trying to trip them up.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not arguing with your position. I just don't see that example as being truly revealing of the truth you think (and I think) is in the Bible.

[awareness]

Mat_21:31 .... Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Mat_21:31 .... Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Unfortunately, this is an example of fortune-cookie scripture reading. Without context, it seems to suggest that the people the law railed on get in first. And being "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots" may not be such a bad thing.

What is surely missed in this particular passage is that the ones who get in are those who recognize their failure and turn to God. Those who think they have no need do not turn. Or take longer to turn. So those with the greater need are the ones who turn more quickly (and therefore are "first"). Since the kingdom is not just the New J, they do enter first. They enter when they turn.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If only a couple people out of every hundred are truly born again, and have starved their flesh of every lust, then it sounds a lot more difficult then you are letting us on to believe. Personally I would question whether even 2% can make it into the kingdom for reasons I mentioned before.

If we only starve our flesh then that's basically Buddhism. God doesn't want us to quench all desire but to direct it towards him. He gave us the ability to love things because we were designed to love Him. Only God can truly satisfy us and give our souls true peace, rest and eternal satisfaction and enjoyment. Everything in the world including porn is the bootleg or the counterfeit for what can truly satisfy our soul. The desires of the world trick us into thinking they can satisfy us when they can't. It only leaves us wanting more. That's why the woman at the well had seven husbands. This is the deceitfulness of riches Solomon, possibly the richest man who ever lived, described in his writings.

So we starve our flesh but we also feed our spirit by spending time in God's presence and his word and doing his will. I've been able to experience God's presence so much while preaching the gospel at times. The high you get when someone responds positively is indescribable.

I remember after one time I was feeling such a spiritual high after a homeless man responded to my ministering, I noticed it was lunch time but I felt full, I didn't need to eat because my spirit was filled! Jesus said his food was to do the Father's will. He wasn't kidding! It was uncanny. I live for that high. It's what we were made for. We were made for eternity and to bring others into that reality.