Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I agree faith is actually gifted to us by God but it comes when we fully surrender to him. I can look at all the miracles God has done in my life and use that as a basis of his perfect integrity to trust him in the future.

At what point do you become born again? Is it by mere credence that Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins? How do you arrive at this from the scriptures?

You become born again when you initially truly believe and the Spirit comes in and makes you alive in Christ. I'm not going to quote the verses because you know what they are.

http://new.exchristian.net/2011/07/f...-satanist.html

I don't know this person or really know anything about him. I don't even know if he is truthfully representing anything.

In general, I try to not comment on whether someone I've never met and know little about is truly a believer or not. In fact, I don't actively try to discern whether someone is saved or not. If someone tells me they believe in Jesus I give them the benefit of the doubt until I get enough evidence to think they really don't.

In general, however, I doubt that anyone who has truly tasted the Spirit could become a Satanist. Though I do believe that a nominal Christian could.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You become born again when you initially truly believe and the Spirit comes in and makes you alive in Christ. I'm not going to quote the verses because you know what they are.

I'm not sure of which verses you are referring to but I know that Jesus says in John 14 that he will send the Holy Spirit to us after we love him and keep his commandments ( such as forgiving and loving your enemies, etc.).

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

Jesus repeats this again in verse 23 and says he and the Father will make his home in our hearts once we love and obey him, presumably via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

What level of love and obedience is required exactly? He did tell us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and that this was the greatest commandment.

By loving God we also love those who are made in his image.

Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Paul says the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbors, perhaps with the love that comes from Christ living in us.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

So this is my understanding of when you become born again, when you surrender your heart to Jesus and in doing so love him with all your heart.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I'm not sure of which verses you are referring to but I know that Jesus says in John 14 that he will send the Holy Spirit to us after we love him and keep his commandments ( such as forgiving and loving your enemies, etc.).

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

Jesus repeats this again in verse 23 and says he and the Father will make his home in our hearts once we love and obey him, presumably via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

What level of love and obedience is required exactly? He did tell us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and that this was the greatest commandment.

By loving God we also love those who are made in his image.

Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Paul says the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbors, perhaps with the love that comes from Christ living in us.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

So this is my understanding of when you become born again, when you surrender your heart to Jesus and in doing so love him with all your heart.

None of these verses have anything to do with being born again.

bearbear, you read the Bible like someone who is colorblind. You just see black and white. To you, either the verses are about getting eternal salvation or about losing eternal salvation. It's outside of your concept that the Lord could be talking about anything else.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

None of these verses have anything to do with being born again.

bearbear, you read the Bible like someone who is colorblind. You just see black and white. To you, either the verses are about getting eternal salvation or about losing eternal salvation. It's outside of your concept that the Lord could be talking about anything else.

I'm open to your point of view and I think I'm capable of nuance. This is a subject I haven't spent a long time studying and I think I can learn from you guys. But maybe it's not a subject worth delving into. The process of being born again does seem quite a bit controversial and it does seem like splitting hairs if you look at all the verses that talk about receiving the Holy Spirit, being born again, receiving a new heart and new spirit etc. Even Billy Graham lists some formulaic steps saying you have to repent of your sins, believe and try to obey the Lord. In my case, those all result from a desire for obeying and loving the Lord once convinced enough to trust in the message of the Gospel.

http://billygraham.org/story/how-to-be-born-again/

"Jesus Christ says that we must be born again. How do we become born again? By repenting of sin. That means we are willing to change our way of living. We say to God, “I’m a sinner, and I’m sorry.” It’s simple and childlike. Then by faith we receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master and Savior. We are willing to follow Him in a new life of obedience, in which the Holy Spirit helps us as we read the Bible and pray and witness."

Maybe it's all bit of a mystery and that's why Jesus left it at "the wind blows where it wills". But it still wouldn't hurt to make sure your heart is good earth via repentance and loving Jesus with all your heart in full surrender would it? Why take any chances? Shouldn't we encourage people to do so?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I'm open to your point of view and I think I'm capable of nuance. This is a subject I haven't spent a long time studying and I think I can learn from you guys. But maybe it's not a subject worth delving into. The process of being born again does seem quite a bit controversial and it does seem like splitting hairs if you look at all the verses that talk about receiving the Holy Spirit, being born again, receiving a new heart and new spirit etc. Even Billy Graham lists some formulaic steps saying you have to repent of your sins, believe and try to obey the Lord. In my case, those all result from a desire for obeying and loving the Lord once convinced enough to trust in the message of the Gospel.

http://billygraham.org/story/how-to-be-born-again/

"Jesus Christ says that we must be born again. How do we become born again? By repenting of sin. That means we are willing to change our way of living. We say to God, “I’m a sinner, and I’m sorry.” It’s simple and childlike. Then by faith we receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master and Savior. We are willing to follow Him in a new life of obedience, in which the Holy Spirit helps us as we read the Bible and pray and witness."

I will say this however. Maybe it's all bit of a mystery and that's why Jesus left it at "the wind blows where it wills". But it still wouldn't hurt to make sure your heart is good earth via repentance and loving Jesus with all your heart in full surrender would it? Why take any chances? Shouldn't we encourage people to do so?

Sam,

Billy Graham makes a key point: Its simple and child-like. I generally take Occum's Razor to the Scripture, through the lens of the central gospel.

I am sure that there are those (I know some) who abuse grace as license to sin. There are still others who sit on the laurels of their cultural faith (shared upbringing) and master a culture rather than pursue a faith (many in the LC). But most Christians who aren't usurping the CHristian message for their own agenda, are attempting, imperfectly, to follow Him.

This desire to follow Him, based on the revelation that He is God and Savior, is the foundation for a Christian life. It is born in humility and continues there. Sure, there is some fear. But, I don't believe God in Christ to use fear as a primary manipulator. That is just my experience. Christians pursue doing what is right because they are motivated by love to do so. But they also fail miserably. And God helps scoop them up, as soon as they return to a prayerful need for a Savior yet again. There is a process, to be sure. But my belief (credence) told God that I wanted to live my life together with Him. Personally, I take no account of my eternal state. Call me crazy. I pursue Christ as my Savior, because He has given me a rich life in Him, even as hard as it can be.

If you told me I had to deny Jesus in order to get into heaven, I'd likely say I don't care about your threat. I don't need the "carrot" to tell you to go pound salt. I won't deny Jesus because of the rich life I have in Him. Not because I might or might not get some future reward.

Thoughts?

Peter



P.S. I'll respond to your thoughtful post regarding Peter's denial soon. Thanks for it.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Sam,

Billy Graham makes a key point: Its simple and child-like. I generally take Occum's Razor to the Scripture, through the lens of the central gospel.

I am sure that there are those (I know some) who abuse grace as license to sin. There are still others who sit on the laurels of their cultural faith (shared upbringing) and master a culture rather than pursue a faith (many in the LC). But most Christians who aren't usurping the CHristian message for their own agenda, are attempting, imperfectly, to follow Him.

This desire to follow Him, based on the revelation that He is God and Savior, is the foundation for a Christian life. It is born in humility and continues there. Sure, there is some fear. But, I don't believe God in Christ to use fear as a primary manipulator. That is just my experience. Christians pursue doing what is right because they are motivated by love to do so. But they also fail miserably. And God helps scoop them up, as soon as they return to a prayerful need for a Savior yet again. There is a process, to be sure. But my belief (credence) told God that I wanted to live my life together with Him. Personally, I take no account of my eternal state. Call me crazy. I pursue Christ as my Savior, because He has given me a rich life in Him, even as hard as it can be.

If you told me I had to deny Jesus in order to get into heaven, I'd likely say I don't care about your threat. I don't need the "carrot" to tell you to go pound salt. I won't deny Jesus because of the rich life I have in Him. Not because I might or might not get some future reward.

Thoughts?

Peter



P.S. I'll respond to your thoughtful post regarding Peter's denial soon. Thanks for it.

Those are some good points Peter. I think the human heart is a mystery and there is a different key to unlock everyone's heart guiding them to love Jesus with all their heart. I think Jesus purposely chose the analogy of saying we should be fishers of men. Different fish require different bait. For me coming to know God could cast me to hell drove me to him, and he eventually showed me how much he loved me so I could love him back. If I never feared him in the first place, I probably would have just lived my life as normal. So I was caught by the fear of hell bait. That's my testimony and it may be different for everyone else. The difference in my case was I already believed in Jesus and the Bible as being authoritative. This method of using fear would not work on an atheist for example who would require other means to gradually unlock his heart for Jesus.

I think that's why hellfire preaching doesn't make sense because it does tend to scare all the fish away. That said, one third of Jesus' ministry was spent preaching on hell, and if you study where he did it, it was usually to his followers and disciples and not when he ate and drank with sinners. Jesus always was merciful and gentle in his contact with the outcast sinners of society. Some churches have the opposite practice. They preach hell to those outside the church, then avoid it all together inside the church. Paul also seems to share the same attitude by telling the Corinthian believers to judge those inside the church and not outside (1 Cor 5:12), presumably because everyone outside is going to hell, but those inside have a chance to avoid it if the unrepentant sinner inside it repents.

That said I agree the best way to ensure a healthy relationship with Jesus is to grow in intimacy with him. If we have a real intimate relationship with Jesus, it will help us have the right heart and motivation for how we avoid temptation and practice righteousness, because we're doing it to please him and because we treasure him living inside of us. I wrote a blog post on this a while back as an answer to someone's question during small group time:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-if-jesus.html