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#1 | |
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But after the LRC I couldn't go back to the SBC. It seemed I would be going backwards. And I couldn't fit into the box again.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#2 | ||
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Sorry, I promised not to take part in the discussion, but I want to come back to reply bro Awareness and also leave a couple of lines as PS.
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Brother Aron mentioned Nikolai Berdyaev in one of the threads. Quote:
Being an Orthodox Christian, Berdyaev criticized the clergy of the church and was even charged with the crime of blasphemy. Ordinary Christians and even monks liked him, whereas theologians, principally laymen, protested against his ideas. Nevertheless, I want to put a period to the discussion, with one of Berdyaev's quotes: "The Christian world doesn't know Orthodoxy too well. It only knows the external and for the most part, the negative features of the Orthodox Church and not the inner spiritual treasure. Orthodoxy was locked inside itself, it did not have the spirit of proselytism and did not reveal itself to the world. For the longest time, Orthodoxy did not have such world-wide significance as did Catholicism and Protestantism. It remained apart form passionate religious battles for hundreds of years, for centuries it lived under the protection of large empires (Byzantium and Russia), and preserved its eternal truth from the destructive processes of world history. It is characteristic of Orthodoxy's religious nature that it was not sufficiently actualized nor exposed externally, it was not militant, and precisely because of this the heavenly truth of Christian revelation was not distorted so much. Orthodoxy is that form of Christianity which suffered the least distortion in its substance as a result of human history. The Orthodox Church had its moments of historical sin, for the most part in connection with its external dependence on the State, but the Church's teaching, her inner spiritual path was not subject to distortion. The Orthodox Church is primarily the Church of tradition, in contrast to the Catholic Church, which is the Church of authority, and to the Protestant Churches which are essentially churches of individual faith. The Orthodox Church was never subject to a single externally authoritarian organization and it unshakenly was held together by the strength of internal tradition and not by any external authority. Out of all forms of Christianity it is the Orthodox Church which remained more closely tied to early Christianity."
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1 Corinthians 13:4-8 |
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#3 | |||||||
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According to Marko Markovic, "He was an ardent man, rebellious to all authority, an independent and "negative" spirit. He could assert himself only in negation and could not hear any assertion without immediately negating it, to such an extent that he would even be able to contradict himself and to attack people who shared his own prior opinions." ~Wiki Quote:
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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#4 |
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I know I'm late to this discussion. I really benefitted from the complete paragraph from which this small quote was taken..."Out of all forms of Christianity it is the Orthodox Church which remained more closely tied to early Christianity." But, I must ask how early? The age of the apostles, or the age of the church fathers?
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#5 | ||
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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A case in point is the Orthodox Ethiopian Church, which alone preserved the Enochic writings (until they were discovered in Qumran in 1947). Obviously, authorship and canonicity aside, 1 Enoch had an influence in early church thinking. But it got submarined in the tides of historical events. Only one single branch of the Orthodox Church preserved this important writing. People like Calvin, with thier "sola scriptora", had no idea how distorted their thinking and behavior had become. They simply had no point of reference beyond their own logic. That also holds for Nee's "Normal" Church. He really had no idea what was normal, beyond his own supposedly logical constructions. Ostensibly Nee read every Christian work, from the first centuries up, which was worth reading. That is patently absurd. When you step back and look at that, Lee's hagiography of Nee has almost no trace of objective reality attached to it. It is wishful thinking at its worst. And I write as an avowed Protestant, one who's neither Orthodox nor interested in joining their fellowship. I am simply talking about the early writings, i.e. the witness of the ages. If you dig, there is an unbroken stream of witness. Nee didn't have access. Even now we are only unearthing the fringes of it. Much has been lost, probably for good. But what Nee had access to, in 1925, is rather thin. He had no idea what "normal" was. Really no idea. But his ideas, unfortunately, were enough to throw off the Western yoke, establish a rapidly growing movement, and allow him to teach, "everybody get in line", and "hand over", and "deputy authority", and so forth. So ignorance didn't hold him back at all. And when you see his frantic wriggling when the Commies showed up, it was clear what kingdom he was building. He really had no idea what he was doing. For instance, when they registered with the government. I asked why and they said, "You have to." Where in the NT does it show this?
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#6 | |
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From Wikipedia: "The Apostolic Fathers is a term used to describe a group of Early Christian writings produced in the late 1st century and the first half of the 2nd century. These writings, though not unpopular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not part of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the final form of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the "Apostolic Fathers" seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings (that remained) in the New Testament." The Orthodox Church teachings are based on the Bible and the union of the Church Fathers. When they all agree and it doesn't contradict the Bible, then this is the truth. It helps to keep the faith of the ancient Christians and not to subtract or add anything, like Catholics or Protestant do. BTW, most of the teachings of the early Christians were written in Greek, not in Latin. Later when the writings were translated into Latin, certain things were neglected or lost in translation. One of these things is the nature of relationship between God and man. I will quote Peter Berger, a Lutheran theologian: “There are many ways of describing the distinctiveness of Orthodoxy, as against both the Roman Catholic and Protestant versions of Christianity. One way is nicely summed up in a statement by Paul Evdokimov, a lay member of the St. Serge school who did not move to America (he played a courageous role during the German occupation of France, among other things helping Jews to escape from the Nazis). Evdokimov suggests that Western Christianity sees the relationship between God and man as taking place in a courtroom - God is the judge, man is guilty, sentence must be pronounced, Christ takes the sentence upon himself, which allows God to forgive man. The entire transaction is judicial and penitential. By contrast, Eastern Christianity sees the relationship as taking place in a hospital - man is sick, sin is just part of the sickness, Christ is the victor over every part of this sickness (including death, which is the culmination of the sickness). The transaction between God and man is not judicial but therapeutic. It seems to me that this is a much more compassionate view of the human condition and its redemption.” So the Orthodox understanding of salvation is also different from Catholic and Protestant: “Salvation, for Orthodox Christians, is seen as deliverance from the curse of sin and death, which makes it possible for us to enter into union with God through Christ the Savior. Salvation includes a process of growth of the whole person whereby the sinner is transformed into the image and likeness of God. One is saved by faith through grace, although saving faith involves more than belief. Faith must be active and living, manifested by works of righteousness, whereby we cooperate with God to do His will. Hence, if one is “being saved,” one is on the way to one’s ultimate goal: eternal union with God and participation in the divine nature, as Saint Paul writes.” http://oca.org/questions/scripture/h...from-the-faith As for the history of the Orthodox Church, you may find some info here: History of the Orthodox Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...rthodox_Church The Eastern Orthodox Churches trace their roots back to the Apostles and Jesus Christ. Apostolic succession established the seats of Patriarchy (for example see the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem). Orthodoxy reached its golden age during the high point of the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire, taken over by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the Serbian Orthodox Church before it continued to flourish in Russia after the Fall of Constantinople. Numerous autocephalous churches have been established in Eastern Europe and Slavic areas. Four stages of development can be distinguished in the history of the Orthodox Churches. Early Christianity, which is roughly the first three centuries through the early age of Constantine the Great, constitutes the Apostolic and ancient period. The Byzantine period, beginning with the First seven Ecumenical Councils, comprises over eleven centuries from the First Council of Nicaea in 325 to the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. The Ottoman period starts, roughly, for the Greek and Balkan communities in the fifteenth century with the Fall of Constantinople, and ends about the year 1830, which marks Greek and Serbian independence from the Ottoman Empire. The last stage is the modern period. History of the Orthodox Church http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7053 A History of the Orthodox Church: Outline http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/history.aspx A Timeline of Church History http://www.antiochian.org/orthodox-church-history BTW, my wife is still active in the LRC. As for me, I stopped attending their meetings and started to go to a small Orthodox parish in my locality. I got a few books on Orthodoxy ("Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith" by Peter Gillquist, "Surprised by Christ: My Journey From Judaism to Orthodox Christianity" by James Bernstein, "Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells" by Matthew Gallatin, "The Truth of Our Faith" vol 1 by Elder Cleopa, etc.) So I am learning more about this ancient faith, and the more I learn, the more it makes sense to me. Well, I might be bias because Orthodoxy is the faith of my grandparents.
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1 Corinthians 13:4-8 |
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#7 |
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What is the “The Orthodox Church”?
The Orthodox Church, also known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, is a communion of Local Churches worldwide bound together by apostolic succession (from the Apostles), history, faith, creed, Ecumenical Councils, canons and liturgy. It is the second-largest Christian group in the world after the Roman Catholic Church, unless you consider Protestant groups and denominations as one entity. Estimates of the number of worldwide Orthodox Christians range from 250 million to 350 million. Estimates of American members are between one and two million and the Orthodox Church is one of the fastest – growing Christian churches in America, drawing a rising numbers of converts from Evangelical and other Christian faith traditions. Where did the Orthodox Church originate? Jesus Christ founded His Church through the Apostles. By the grace received from God at Pentecost, the Apostles established the Church throughout the ancient world. St. Paul founded the Church of Antioch; St. Peter and St. James, the Church of Jerusalem; St. Andrew the Church of Constantinople; St. Mark, the Church of Alexandria; St. Peter and St. Paul, the Church of Rome. For one thousand years the Church was one (East and West), unbroken and undivided! After the Great Schism of 1054 A.D., when the Latin or western church tragically separated from eastern Christendom (at Constantinople), the eastern non-Oriental churches became known as the "Eastern Orthodox Church", to distinguish them from what subsequently became known as the "Roman Catholic Church". Isn’t the “historic Church” Roman Catholic? The “headquarters” of the ancient Christian faith was in fact not Rome but in the Eastern world! The apostles founded the majority of Churches in the Eastern world (and only two in the West). It was from the East (not from Rome) that the apostles and Paul were sent out with the Gospel. The West was not a center of the early Christian movement – it was the “mission field”! For over 1,000 years, with the exception of Rome, all the major centers of Christian belief were found in the East – in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinople. All the fundamental dogmas regarding the faith were formulated and defended in the East – essential dogmas like Christ being “of the same essence” with the Father; that Christ is fully God and fully human; that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person; and the nature of the Trinity. The first schools of Biblical interpretation, Antioch and Alexandria, were in the East. Their perspectives of interpretation still influence much of our understanding of the Scriptures today. The East was the site for all the Ecumenical Church Councils (that is, the first seven from 325 to 787 A.D.) which formulated doctrines which Christians of all orthodox traditions accept as normative. The overwhelming majority of the bishops present at those councils were Eastern as well. I thought there are just two kinds of Christians, Protestant and Catholic. How can you claim you are neither? From the Orthodox point of view, Roman Catholicism is a medieval modification of the original Orthodox faith of the Church in Western Europe, and Protestantism is a later attempt to return to the original Faith. There is a certain sense in which, to our way of thinking, the Reformation did not go far enough. We respectfully differ with Roman Catholicism on questions of papal authority, the nature of primacy within the Church, and a number of other consequent issues. Historically, the Orthodox Church is both "pre-Protestant" and "pre-Roman Catholic" in the sense that many modern Roman Catholic teachings (such as the dogmas of papal infallibility and the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary) were developed much later in Christian history. The word catholic is a Greek word meaning "having to do with wholeness, fullness of faith." We do consider ourselves "Catholic" in that sense of the word, that is, as proclaiming and practicing "the fullness of the Christian faith." In fact, the full title of our Church is "The Orthodox Catholic Church." We find that Protestants readily relate to Orthodoxy's emphasis on personal faith and the Scriptures. Roman Catholics easily identify with Orthodoxy's rich liturgical worship and sacramental life. Roman Catholic visitors often comment, "in lots of ways your Liturgy reminds me of our old High Mass." Why do you call yourselves "Orthodox"? The word orthodox was coined by the ancient Christian Fathers of the Church, the name traditionally given to the Christian writers in the first centuries of Christian history. Orthodox is a combination of two Greek words, orthos and doxa. Orthos means "straight" or "correct." (It is also found in the word "orthopedics," which in the original Greek means "the correct education of children.") Doxa means at one and the same time "glory," "worship" and "doctrine." So the word orthodox signifies both "proper worship" and "correct doctrine." The Orthodox Church today is identical to the undivided Church of ancient times. It is the Church found on the pages of the New Testament. The 16th century Protestant Reformer Martin Luther once remarked that he believed the pure Faith of primitive Christianity is to be found in the Orthodox Church. http://saintig.org/visitors/orthodox-faq
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#8 |
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Some more links:
The Original Christian Gospel FR. JAMES BERNSTEIN http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament? by Fr. James Bernstein http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/whichcamefirst.aspx Chapters from “The Truth of Our Faith”: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_bookinfo.aspx Finding The New Testament Church By Fr. Jon E. Braun http://www.antiochian.org/content/fi...stament-church http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/orthod...stament-church Patriarchates, Bishops, and Popes - Is the Catholic Church the direct line from Peter? http://wellthoughtoutlife.blogspot.c...-popes-is.html Understanding the Orthodox Christian Faith http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxdbE7033Ho Sola Scriptura. In the Vanity of Their Minds by Fr. John Whiteford http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tc...scriptura.aspx Is Venerating Icons Idolatry? by Timothy Copple http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A....Icons+Idolatry No Graven Image: Icons and Their Proper Use by Fr. Jack N. Sparks, Ph.D. http://www.antiochian.org/content/no...eir-proper-use Are not icons images or idols that are forbidden by the ten commandments? Why do the Orthodox give such reverence (kissing, etc) to icons? http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/o...ns-and-relics/ The Functions of Icons by Dr. Constantine Cavarnos http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_function.aspx What is an Icon? Do Orthodox Christians pray to Icons? Do Icons work miracles? Doesn’t the 2nd Commandment forbid Icons? Icons in the Old Testament. http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/o...ns-and-relics/ Holy Fathers – On Veneration of Icons (Fr. Alexey Young) http://www.roca.org/OA/19/19e.htm What is Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is not only the sum total of dogmas accepted as true in a purely formal manner. It is not only theory, but practice; it is not only right Faith, but a life which agrees in everything with this Faith. The true Orthodox Christian is not only he who thinks in an Orthodox manner, but who feels according to Orthodoxy and lives Orthodoxy, who strives to embody the true Orthodox teaching of Christ in his life. http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/www.s...Orthodoxy.html Theosis: The True Purpose of Human Life http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx Some straight answers about the Orthodox Church http://web.mit.edu/ocf/www/orthodox_qna.html Rules for Pious Life http://www.fatheralexander.org/bookl...sh/ch_life.htm HOW OLD IS THE ORTHODOX FAITH? http://stinnocentorthodoxchurch.org/...rthodox-faith/ I still remember and like the quote about Orthodoxy that Aron shared once. The words belong to the Russian thinker Nicolai Berdyaev: “Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form”. We can say the same about Berdayev. He was a great thinker but some of his ideas were controversial and not Orthodox at all. But by his life, he was an Orthodox Christian.
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#9 |
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The Orthodox Christian Church, also called the “Eastern Orthodox,” “Greek Orthodox” Church, or simply “the Orthodox Church,” is the oldest Christian Church in the world, founded by Jesus Christ and with its beginnings chronicled in the New Testament. (Our own Patriarchate of Antioch, one of the most ancient of Orthodox churches, was originally founded in A.D. 34 by Ss. Peter and Paul.) All other Christian churches and groups can be traced historically back to it. http://saintpaulemmaus.org/what-is-orthodoxy/ The Orthodox Church is the original Christian Church, the Church founded by the Lord Jesus Christ and described in the pages of the New Testament. Her history can be traced in unbroken continuity all the way back to Christ and His Twelve Apostles. Incredible as it seems, for over twenty centuries she has continued in her undiminished and unaltered faith and practice. Today her apostolic doctrine, worship, and structure remain intact. The Orthodox Church maintains that the Church is the living Body of Jesus Christ. http://www.antiochian.org/content/wh...rthodox-church The Bible is a product of the Church. For the first few centuries of the Christian era, no one could have put his hands on a single volume called "The Bible." In fact, there was no one put his hands on a single volume called "The Bible." In fact, there was no agreement regarding which "books" of Scripture were to be considered accurate and correct, or canonical. It were the Church Fathers who compiled the Bible in the 4th century. http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/scrip...nthechurch.htm THE BASICS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE, BASED ON THE WRITINGS OF ST. IGNATIUS (BRIANCHANINOV) http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/53476.htm What is the Holy Tradition? In the original meaning of the word, Holy Tradition is the tradition which comes from the ancient Church of Apostolic times. In the second to the fourth centuries this was called "the Apostolic Tradition." http://www.fatheralexander.org/bookl...opinions_e.htm The Bible to be God's inspired word a part of the Tradition of the Church. (II Thessalonians, 2:15) In fact, it was the Church which gave us the Bible as we know it today! (You didn't think it just fell from heaven as we have it, did you?) Jesus Christ did not come to establish such a thing as "Christianity". Even the word is not in the Holy Scriptures. What Christ Jesus did do was to establish the Church, which Scripture calls both His Body and His Bride. the communion which man seeks with God is found by being part of the Church, something which St. Paul calls a "great mystery", whereby we become members of Christ: "of His flesh, and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30) The Bible also tells us that such as were being saved were added to the Church (Acts 2:47). They were not merely making "decisions for Christ" -- again, not a Scriptural term -- but they were repenting, being baptized for the remission of their sins, and being added to the Church. (Acts 2:38 ff.) There, they were continuing steadfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship, the Breaking of Bread (what is commonly called Holy Communion today), and prayer. Finally, from the day of Pentecost, the "birthday" of the Church, the Bible never speaks of Christians who were not a part of it. This sort of sums up why we speak so much of "The Church". http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/questions.html The Orthodox Church preserves all the teachings and traditions - including Holy Scripture - that were held by all Christians for the first ten centuries. http://www.holyresurrection.com/home/what-is-orthodoxy
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