Where Has All the Orthopraxy Gone?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I wanted to move this from the "introductions" thread to here, because this really strikes at the heart of "orthodoxy" versus "orthopraxy".

After writing the above comments, I began singing the chorus of a little melody to myself: "Feed me Lord Jesus/Give me to drink/fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst/Flood me with joy/Be the strength of my heart/Fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst"

It all sounds so orthodox, doesn't it? Pleasnt little song, catchy melody. That is part of the "hook" to get the converts in. Make it seem so good, and proper, and "Biblical". Everything is seemingly by the book. But once you are in, and fully invested in the system, and you begin to see things that are not, in fact, Biblical, what can you do? Because the system's directives also say, "Maximum Brother is always right". They use, for example, the story of Moses and Miriam and Aaron, and the story of the drunken Noah, and they say this shows us God's plan of a normal church life.

So when Lee said to pan the Psalms, we all did. Even if Paul had written in his epistles to sing them, Lee said not to sing them. So in practice, we went with Lee, over the Bible. This is not heretical, per se, but rather deviant behavior. We paid lip service to the Bible, then went and did what the "God's oracle" told us to do. To me this looks unbalanced, and dangerous. Heteropraxy, if you will.

One day about 2 years ago I was getting interested in the Psalms and I went to LSM's website, on the "Music" section. At the top of one page they had the quote from Paul in his epistle, urging the saints to sing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs". And they had many, many music CDs for sale. But no Psalms! You could sing verses from Thessalonians, or Timothy, or even the outline of Lee's trainings ("Incarnation, inclusion, intensification!"). But no Psalms. Why? Because Lee had told us that they were "fallen concepts" and should be avoided. So Big Brother had spoken, and even if it made no sense we had to follow. Because, remember, Big Brother is always right. Even when he's wrong, he's right.

So they take great pains to appear orthodox, but when you start to hang around with them, you begin to realize that at best they are unbalanced and strange.

It really seems like for LC leadership, there is a constant struggle to balance teaching and practice. For the Christian public they want to appear orthodox. I suppose that they have had some success at that in recent years, but I don't think just because Christian scholars state that the LC is orthodox is going to generate interest in the LC for outsiders.

In regards to doctrine, the LC has to maintain unique the unique teachings of WL. That is what makes it the LC. In regards to practice, they have to maintain their unique practices in order really unique in comparison with other "Christians".

To they outsider, they can create an image of having orthodox doctrines. That is relatively easy. I don't know how they can really do the same in regards to practice. About the best they can do is be very esoteric regarding what practices are revealed to whom.

It doesn't seem possible in the LC to gravitate towards normal Christian orthopraxy. Those who come in and do so don't seem to last very long. Those who stay quickly are drawn into the heteropraxy, and once that happens it is not easy to find a way out. I say that because I am still in the LC.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It really seems like for LC leadership, there is a constant struggle to balance teaching and practice. For the Christian public they want to appear orthodox. I suppose that they have had some success at that in recent years, but I don't think just because Christian scholars state that the LC is orthodox is going to generate interest in the LC for outsiders.

In regards to doctrine, the LC has to maintain unique the unique teachings of WL. That is what makes it the LC. In regards to practice, they have to maintain their unique practices in order really unique in comparison with other "Christians".

To they outsider, they can create an image of having orthodox doctrines. That is relatively easy. I don't know how they can really do the same in regards to practice. About the best they can do is be very esoteric regarding what practices are revealed to whom.

It doesn't seem possible in the LC to gravitate towards normal Christian orthopraxy. Those who come in and do so don't seem to last very long. Those who stay quickly are drawn into the heteropraxy, and once that happens it is not easy to find a way out. I say that because I am still in the LC.

As I sum up your post Freedom, appears you're saying:
1. LSM/LC leadership want to appear/maintain image of orthodox to Christian scholars and public (see CRI).
2. In practice maintain/promote the Lee's ministry as "unique".
3. Of new contacts visiting LC meetings will either be turned away by promotion of a ministry and few will be drawn into the vision.

As a current LC elder once said..."the recovery is not for everybody".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I sum up your post Freedom, appears you're saying:
1. LSM/LC leadership want to appear/maintain image of orthodox to Christian scholars and public (see CRI).
2. In practice maintain/promote the Lee's ministry as "unique".
3. Of new contacts visiting LC meetings will either be turned away by promotion of a ministry and few will be drawn into the vision.

As a current LC elder once said..."the recovery is not for everybody".

I think the LC sees being accepted by mainstream Christianity as necessary for survival. The problem with that is if they were to adopt mainstream teachings and practices, there would be nothing "special" about it. For any ministry to claim it is the the ministry of the age means that there is going to be something wrong with it.

So the LC can create the illusion of being orthodox, but it will never succeed at being orthodox.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think the LC sees being accepted by mainstream Christianity as necessary for survival. The problem with that is if they were to adopt mainstream teachings and practices, there would be nothing "special" about it. For any ministry to claim it is the the ministry of the age means that there is going to be something wrong with it.

So the LC can create the illusion of being orthodox, but it will never succeed at being orthodox.

Many like us who were raised in the local churches, don't know any differently. Meeting with other assemblies, I am quite fine with local churches being somewhat unorthodox. Unique? Not really. Speak with someone from the Exclusive Brethren and you'll realize the local churches are not so unique. Sure they might try to use high sounding words to appear unique, but not really.
Real issues for a former LC attendee such as myself are the practices (orthopraxy) that are sectarian and only produce division.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

Many like us who were raised in the local churches, don't know any differently. Meeting with other assemblies, I am quite fine with local churches being somewhat unorthodox. Unique? Not really. Speak with someone from the Exclusive Brethren and you'll realize the local churches are not so unique. Sure they might try to use high sounding words to appear unique, but not really.
Real issues for a former LC attendee such as myself are the practices (orthopraxy) that are sectarian and only produce division.

When I was in Detroit I had two small children and I was watching what was going on..."oh Lord Jesus" repeatedly, the shouting in meetings, the constant pray-reading and that was the beginning of the end for me but not the deciding issue. I was concerned about raising my children in that environment. There were other issues and I was fully aware of the issues surrounding the Plymouth Brethren since we were similar.

The bottom line for me was when Ron K. and the other two elders in an open meeting berated another brother, Don O. and I for "not following brothers". Don and I had been involved in bringing in the young people and I had been working the University. We were doing some crazy stuff after going to Berkeley and seeing what they were doing. We were concerned that the elders were not willing to follow some things but we were certainly flexible. Rather than pull us aside and talk to us about it they decide to deride us openly in a meeting. We were just in our 20's and we were doing the best we could full tilt. Don O cried and I was just stunned. Using a basic right in our country there was no due process or fairness. In the end what they did was blow up the efforts of Don O and I and the pursuit of bringing in young people of which I had brought some into the LC from the University.

As we know, these were not unique responses from LC leaders because these are the practices of the LCs over the years!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

I was concerned about raising my children in that environment.

My sentiment also. At the grade school level, not a problem. It was when my children reached junior high, (having witnessed bizarre and reactive behavior at YP Conferences I had attended as a teen), I wanted to shield my children from similar experiences.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

My sentiment also. At the grade school level, not a problem. It was when my children reached junior high, (having witnessed bizarre and reactive behavior at YP Conferences I had attended as a teen), I wanted to shield my children from similar experiences.

You have an interesting background since you grew up in that environment. An interesting story recognizing that maybe your children should not follow the same steps. It is courageous that you were willing to make that change for your children.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

My sentiment also. At the grade school level, not a problem. It was when my children reached junior high, (having witnessed bizarre and reactive behavior at YP Conferences I had attended as a teen), I wanted to shield my children from similar experiences.

In particular I know serving brothers and sisters mean well. Maybe there is a misplaced zeal concerning deputy/delegated authority and how to handle/interact with young people. Though teens may not respond, at least with my teen children they are observant.
What I witnessed at a Young People's Conference I was at, during a free time in the afternoon being with young brothers from my locality. One of them was talking to a young sister from another locality with her peers. A serving brother comes running over towards us speaking a rebuking word about brothers and sisters speaking to each other. I thought this was quite bizarre behavior reacting to the group of young people.
I want my children to be able to speak to peers of the opposite gender without feeling they're committing a gross sin.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

When I was in Detroit I had two small children and I was watching what was going on..."oh Lord Jesus" repeatedly, the shouting in meetings, the constant pray-reading and that was the beginning of the end for me but not the deciding issue. I was concerned about raising my children in that environment. There were other issues and I was fully aware of the issues surrounding the Plymouth Brethren since we were similar.

The bottom line for me was when Ron K. and the other two elders in an open meeting berated another brother, Don O. and I for "not following brothers". Don and I had been involved in bringing in the young people and I had been working the University. We were doing some crazy stuff after going to Berkeley and seeing what they were doing. We were concerned that the elders were not willing to follow some things but we were certainly flexible. Rather than pull us aside and talk to us about it they decide to deride us openly in a meeting. We were just in our 20's and we were doing the best we could full tilt. Don O cried and I was just stunned. Using a basic right in our country there was no due process or fairness. In the end what they did was blow up the efforts of Don O and I and the pursuit of bringing in young people of which I had brought some into the LC from the University.

As we know, these were not unique responses from LC leaders because these are the practices of the LCs over the years!

There are a number of cases where certain gifted brothers were berated publicly to the point that younger brothers lost all respect for them, and began to also mistreat them. In one situation, Titus became so abusive publicly towards one brother, that he faced physical confrontations from others thinking they were standing up for the Lord and protecting His church.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are a number of cases where certain gifted brothers were berated publicly to the point that younger brothers lost all respect for them, and began to also mistreat them. In one situation, Titus became so abusive publicly towards one brother, that he faced physical confrontations from others thinking they were standing up for the Lord and protecting His church.

It is not every meeting that this type of verbal abuse in meetings happens. When it does happen to those who have concerns it becomes a deterrent to an expression of concerns. People become frozen. The LC is toast. They have crushed any expression of concern in their meetings so that everyone who has any concerns are holding back. It may not be apparent but it is underlying the entire LC movement.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are a number of cases where certain gifted brothers were berated publicly to the point that younger brothers lost all respect for them, and began to also mistreat them. In one situation, Titus became so abusive publicly towards one brother, that he faced physical confrontations from others thinking they were standing up for the Lord and protecting His church.

Ohio, do you care to be a little more specific as to what you mean by "physical confrontations"? That could mean a lot of things...