Where Has All the Orthopraxy Gone?

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To my knowledge, LSM has never published "The Normal Christian Life", which is arguably Nee's best known work. I think that the LC mainly focuses on "The Normal Christian Church Life", which ironically doesn't espouse the current views in the LC.

They did publish it as a single volume. It is also Volume 33 of the Collected Works of Watchman Nee.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Friedel

They did publish it as a single volume. It is also Volume 33 of the Collected Works of Watchman Nee.

I did not know that. I don't really hear them encourage anyone to read Nee these days. What I have also not heard mentioned is that LSM doesn't have exclusive publishing rights to Nee's materials.

[Friedel]

Add

Originally Posted by Freedom

I don't really hear them encourage anyone to read Nee these days. What I have also not heard mentioned is that LSM doesn't have exclusive publishing rights to Nee's materials.

I do not think they ever had exclusive rights since all of Watchman Nee's books, with the exception of The Spiritual Man which he had in fact written, were transcripts of messages and therefore in the public domain. The language was polished and then published as books. Steven Kaung has been described as an excellent translator and that is how many of Nee's "books" were published in English in the US. (Regarding publishing rights of Watchman Nee's material Witness Lee possibly had another story.)

In England Angus Kinnear published a couple of books in hard cover, including The Normal Christian Life. He must have started in the 1960s and probably at the behest of his father-in-law, Theodore Austin-Sparks, who had probably received copies of messages from people he had met in Taiwan and elsewhere.

Witness Lee often put down Steven Kaung and effectively isolated him on the east coast.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Add

I do not think they ever had exclusive rights since all of Watchman Nee's books, with the exception of The Spiritual Man which he had in fact written, were transcripts of messages and therefore in the public domain. The language was polished and then published as books. Steven Kaung has been described as an excellent translator and that is how many of Nee's "books" were published in English in the US. (Regarding publishing rights of Watchman Nee's material Witness Lee possibly had another story.)

In England Angus Kinnear published a couple of books in hard cover, including The Normal Christian Life. He must have started in the 1960s and probably at the behest of his father-in-law, Theodore Austin-Sparks, who had probably received copies of messages from people he had met in Taiwan and elsewhere.

Witness Lee often put down Steven Kaung and effectively isolated him on the east coast.

I think many in the LC have the impression that LSM is the only publisher of WN works, or at the very least LSM has published all of Nee's works. If I search for "Watchman Nee" on Amazon, many of the results are books from other publishers.

What I find interesting is that I have seen very few people in the LC who have any non-LSM Nee books. Is this just a coincidence? If many of Nee's works have been translated by Kaung then that would explain it. I don't know how things were back in the old days, but it seems that currently a lot of Nee's works are ignored in the LC. I am surprised how much is out there that I have never heard of before.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think many in the LC have the impression that LSM is the only publisher of WN works, or at the very least LSM has published all of Nee's works. If I search for "Watchman Nee" on Amazon, many of the results are books from other publishers.

What I find interesting is that I have seen very few people in the LC who have any non-LSM Nee books. Is this just a coincidence? If many of Nee's works have been translated by Kaung then that would explain it. I don't know how things were back in the old days, but it seems that currently a lot of Nee's works are ignored in the LC. I am surprised how much is out there that I have never heard of before.

When I joined the LC around '75, they did carry the CLC (Normal Ch. Life, Sit Walk Stand) and CFP (Kaung) books. But then the word came down that those were "poor translations" and perpetrated by "rebels" or the "unclear" to boot. And that was the end of them in our bookroom.

Lee was nothing if not an information controller. He would have hated the internet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When I joined the LC around '75, they did carry the CLC (Normal Ch. Life, Sit Walk Stand) and CFP (Kaung) books. But then the word came down that those were "poor translations" and perpetrated by "rebels" or the "unclear" to boot. And that was the end of them in our bookroom.

Lee was nothing if not an information controller. He would have hated the internet.

He did. He said it was his greatest source of "persecution." Then he launched a program to buy up web names and instructed us to rack up hits on LC/LSM sites to influence those fledgling search engines.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He did. He said it was his greatest source of "persecution." Then he launched a program to buy up web names and instructed us to rack up hits
on LC/LSM sites to influence those fledgling search engines.

Ohio, I didn't realize the push to buy up lots of domain names came directly from Lee? I remember the push for individual localities to sign up for their "own" websites starting later, maybe around 1999. But maybe it had already been a couple years in the works.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When I joined the LC around '75, they did carry the CLC (Normal Ch. Life, Sit Walk Stand) and CFP (Kaung) books. But then the word came down that those were "poor translations" and perpetrated by "rebels" or the "unclear" to boot. And that was the end of them in our bookroom.

Lee was nothing if not an information controller. He would have hated the internet.

As a kid I was told that CFP altered and/or added to Nee's messages to fit their own doctrinal agenda. That was the warning that only LSM's published versions of Nee should be trusted.

Troy Books, on the other hand, has claimed that LSM did the same thing. But I don't know if Troy Brooks is a particularly reliable source...

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

As a kid I was told that CFP altered and/or added to Nee's messages to fit their own doctrinal agenda. That was the warning that only LSM's published versions of Nee should be trusted.

Troy Books, on the other hand, has claimed that LSM did the same thing. But I don't know if Troy Brooks is a particularly reliable source...

Sounds like typical LSM propaganda to me. When those associated with a publication company tell you whose publications to read, it's highly suspect. People should be able to choose for themselves which version they want. It's insulting that they don't think the rank and file member has any "discernment" on what's what. On top of that Nee's ministry is just his ministry. If it weren't for the LC placing such a high emphasis on THE ministry, it wouldn't matter so much how "accurate" Nee's books are in regards to the LC doctrines.

So as Ohio pointed out, Nee's books have come from different sets of handwritten notes, obviously resulting in two different versions of the same book. It kind of brings to mind when I used to go to the semi-annual trainings. No recording devices allowed. No sharing notes. What ridiculous rules. Especially the no sharing notes rule. What do you think we ended up doing in the study sessions? At any rate, by keeping anyone from having the means to give their own account of what was covered in the trainings, LSM enabled itself to produce the official account of their "Crystallization Studies". I'm sure they wish they could have done that for Nee's materials.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think many in the LC have the impression that LSM is the only publisher of WN works, or at the very least LSM has published all of Nee's works. If I search for "Watchman Nee" on Amazon, many of the results are books from other publishers.

What I find interesting is that I have seen very few people in the LC who have any non-LSM Nee books. Is this just a coincidence? If many of Nee's works have been translated by Kaung then that would explain it. I don't know how things were back in the old days, but it seems that currently a lot of Nee's works are ignored in the LC. I am surprised how much is out there that I have never heard of before.

Here's how I understand it.

Except for a few books which he actually wrote, most of Nee's books were written from the personal notes of atttendees, since no actual recordings existed. If you have ever been in a meeting or a lecture, then you know that one's notes can differ greatly from another. Secondarily, these hand-written notes needed to be translated into English. Hence, another layer of subjectivity is introduced.

This is why two or three books by various publishers may exist based on the same spoken messages by Nee. Lee, of course, claimed his were the best, and all others were subject to error. Since he claimed that he alone was "Nee's closest and most faithful co-worker," we complied by canning all other books and buying LSM's bound blue volumes.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's how I understand it.

Except for a few books which he actually wrote, most of Nee's books were written from the personal notes of atttendees, since no actual recordings existed. If you have ever been in a meeting or a lecture, then you know that one's notes can differ greatly from another. Secondarily, these hand-written notes needed to be translated into English. Hence, another layer of subjectivity is introduced.

This is why two or three books by various publishers may exist based on the same spoken messages by Nee. Lee, of course, claimed his were the best, and all others were subject to error. Since he claimed that he alone was "Nee's closest and most faithful co-worker," we complied by canning all other books and buying LSM's bound blue volumes.

Since I started reading things on the internet, I was really surprised to learn how many others were involved in the Nee era. Like what was said, WL really controlled all the information. He had us all thinking that Nee was the initial MOTA, and of course he was Nee's direct successor. I now have to question how close Nee and Lee really were in comparison to Nee's other coworkers.

I suppose there is a lot that we will never know, however, what I do know is that Nee was happy to work with others, much more than Lee was. Also, after reading Steve's recent writing on Nee, it is clear that Nee was not the person that Lee portrayed him as.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I suppose there is a lot that we will never know, however, what I do know is that Nee was happy to work with others, much more than Lee was. Also, after reading Steve's recent writing on Nee, it is clear that Nee was not the person that Lee portrayed him as.

I'm not sure about that. Why would he develop a theological construct -- one church one city -- which in effect condemns all others, if he was "happy" to work with them?

Both Nee and Lee worked a system of public shamings and rebukes which automatically placed them on top -- they alone were above reproach.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

What I find interesting is that I have seen very few people in the LC who have any non-LSM Nee books. Is this just a coincidence? If many of Nee's works have been translated by Kaung then that would explain it. I don't know how things were back in the old days, but it seems that currently a lot of Nee's works are ignored in the LC. I am surprised how much is out there that I have never heard of before.

I don't think it's unusual if it's Spiritual Man or Sit Walk Stand. What I consider interesting is not so much non-LSM Nee books, but books on marriage help. LC couples have to go outside LSM publications for Christian books on marriage. To find such a book on the bookshelf of the most ardent LSM advocates causes an eyebrow to raise.