Nothing New under the Sun

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is exactly right.

When the LC's were indeed "local" churches, it was easy to invite others. The more Lee brought all the LC's under his dominion, the harder it was to invite.

The answer was simple. Lee became our center, but Lee never died for me, and neither was I ever baptized into Lee's name. (cf I Cor 1.13)

I personally was being trained to "sell" the ministry of Witness Lee rather than the precious gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I can still distinctly remember sitting in an Anaheim Corinthians training and bearing the guilty burden that serious problems existed because I had not adequately presented and sold the ministry of Witness Lee to others, including my own friends and family. What a twisted delusion i was living in at that time.

As I indicated in post #24 things have changed. We are not living in the 1980s whether we are in the LC or other groups or denominations. We need to keep things in perspective.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

As I indicated in post #24 things have changed. We are not living in the 1980s whether we are in the LC or other groups or denominations. We need to keep things in perspective.

I think this is certainly one side to the issue, and I think Christians as a whole are becoming more aware of the lack of increase and the opposition to Christians. I don't think that the LC is very aware of what is going on in modern society. As a result, they are willing to put members in the position of trying to gain an increase without making them aware of the challeges that will be facing them.

[Freedom]

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.


Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

That is unfortunate. Back in the day on campuses I would just use the 3 circles, spirit, soul, body and explain that you can't know God without experience in the deepest part of your being. This is not rocket science. You can't defend the Christian faith because you move people into their mind....ask them to just simply open their heart...if they truly want to experience God....if not, no problem, and move on... talk to as many people as possible. It's like pyramid schemes, in a sense, which we have all been approached about...you talk to enough people and you will find some who will listen...for a variety of reasons...they are searching...they are open etc... Of course, if you can respond to their concerns that is helpful but for the most part it's sales like quite honestly. Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

Dave,

Your commonsense advice is usually spot-on, as it certainly is here.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

That is unfortunate. Back in the day on campuses I would just use the 3 circles, spirit, soul, body and explain that you can't know God without experience in the deepest part of your being. This is not rocket science. You can't defend the Christian faith because you move people into their mind....ask them to just simply open their heart...if they truly want to experience God....if not, no problem, and move on... talk to as many people as possible. It's like pyramid schemes, in a sense, which we have all been approached about...you talk to enough people and you will find some who will listen...for a variety of reasons...they are searching...they are open etc... Of course, if you can respond to their concerns that is helpful but for the most part it's sales like quite honestly. Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

Yes, I feel like the LC only wanted to try and contact people who would be "easy" to gain. They have no desire to talk to people who have genuine questions that can't be quickly answered. I do think there is truth to part of what they say, that is you can't always expect to convince people by debating them. On the other hand, and just as important, the brothers were always so quick to send us out on the gospel without us really knowing what we were up against. Not everyone is going to magically be "open". In my experience it was quite disappointing to be rejected left and right without realized that is normal. The LC view is basically that people are out their waiting for us to come offer them a Bible or invite them to a meeting. Needless to say, it never plays out that way.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved.

That's been my observation also. Whether you go to preach the gospel or to invite ones to receive the gospel, if 10 out of 10 receive salvation it's considered a lost cause if none of them are brought into the local church.

The focus is all wrong. Salvation should be first and foremost. Whether they come into the local church should not be a ulterior motive.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's been my observation also. Whether you go to preach the gospel or to invite ones to receive the gospel, if 10 out of 10 receive salvation it's considered a lost cause if none of them are brought into the local church.

The focus is all wrong. Salvation should be first and foremost. Whether they come into the local church should not be a ulterior motive.

The LC certainly wants to see people get saved, but if they aren't willing to start reading ministry materials right away or switch to the RcV Bible, they are quick to move on to someone else.

As an interesting side note, I have noticed that BFA has started distributing WL books in addition to Bibles now. Maybe they should change their name to WLFA (Witness Lee for America). America needs God, not Witness Lee and his writings.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have noticed that BFA has started distributing WL books in addition to Bibles now. Maybe they should change their name to WLFA (Witness Lee for America). America needs God, not Witness Lee and his writings.

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

Soon BFA will stand for "Blendeds For America."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

I shouldn't be surprised. I guess it was inevitable. You would think though that they would be happy distributing just a NT Testament littered with WL footnotes. They couldn't resist the urge to also distribute ministry books. They must think that everyone in the U.S. has been waiting their whole lives to receive one of Lee's books...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

WOW...that's exactly what the Mormons do. When their trainee 'elders' come to your door, they bring a kj bible. (A closer look has the LDS footnotes in it. It is NOT the same KJ found at your local Christian or non Mormon bookstore!)

The first scripture they quote is Amos:3:7. "When the Lord God decides to do something, he will first tell his servants, the prophets."

They use that scripture and 'the bible' to get you to read everything Joseph Smith wrote in the book of Mormon etc....

The LC uses the RcV so you can read Lee's works and to a lesser extent Nee's works. They use Watchman Nee's works to reel people in as well because a lot of Nee's books are sold in local bookstores from B&N to your local Christian bookstore. But you won't find the RcV or Lee's books other than in the LSM prison just like you won't find the Mormon's KJ bible or book of Mormon, plus outside their venue.

The LSM would NOT like it if an LCr would read the bible and Nee's works but leave out the RcV & Lee's works.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

Along these lines, I would add that when there is "increase," it is often with folks who have developed a personal connection with a few particular people in the church. Sometimes this lasts. Other times, they gradually, eventually, wisen up to the fact that there's a lot more going on under the surface.

In fact, I would say that often the very thing that attracts people is that they feel there are real personal connections, instead of the politics they might have encountered elsewhere. When they ultimately realize that there is actually a whole world of politics and ministry loyalty, the result can be confusion and disappointment.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Along these lines, I would add that when there is "increase," it is often with folks who have developed a personal connection with a few particular people in the church. Sometimes this lasts. Other times, they gradually, eventually, wisen up to the fact that there's a lot more going on under the surface.

I have seen this so often, and it is clear what exactly is going on when it happens. A LCer will invite someone who knows 2 or 3 others in the LC and because of this mutual friendship, the new person feels somewhat comfortable in the LC environment.... at least for awhile. It bugs me because these people always seem to make a big deal about their "new ones". The LC places so much emphasis on recruiting friends that those who aren't successful in this matter feel a bit of shame.

As an side note, it had been said that during the FTTT in the late 80's those who were really successful in the training received awards. I was told that one of the brothers who was one of the most successful in the practice of door-knocking during the training later left the LC. How ironic is that?