Eldership

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I considered that it could cut against my "elderLY" reading and it very well might. But it does inherently do so. Even if the section is talking about the "elderLY" who take the lead, such ones - that is ones who take on work for others, such ones take on greater accountablity, whether they have office or not. If someone, without office, takes on a burden to labor for the church and, "especially" to teach, then such a one takes on greater accountability. I think this prinicple is valid regardless of "office" or station.

So, I think the 1 Tim 5 reading is still a valid one. That said, even accepting such a reading does not mean there weren't, in fact, offices at the time of Paul - prescribed or inherited. And, as such, its entirely possible that Paul saw an "office" of elder who deserved pay...

Peter

I'm really distressed about the model Paul apparently lays out for a paid clergy. While he himself made tents and at least on this cited occasion declined to accept anything monetary, he has established that there are some who should get money for their Christian labor. Indeed, he has declared it a legal right on the principle of othe ox. The Lord said to go without a purse. Paul says he could demand money. Isn't there a contradiction there?

[aron]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I'm really distressed about the model Paul apparently lays out for a paid clergy. While he himself made tents and at least on this cited occasion declined to accept anything monetary, he has established that there are some who should get money for their Christian labor. Indeed, he has declared it a legal right on the principle of the ox. The Lord said to go without a purse. Paul says he could demand money. Isn't there a contradiction there?

See my closing question in post #92 in this thread. I am thinking that perhaps Paul was not out of line at all, that he was fully blessed by God in his endeavors (the power of the Spirit certainly is evident), but how much did he inadvertently have a hand in the decline by becoming the "model" for the New Testament christian living, instead of Christ?

Yes, the Lord said go without a purse. But the Lord was ministered to by his disciples. "And there were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary the Magdalene, and Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome, who, when He was in Galilee, followed Him and ministered to Him, as well as many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem." -- Mark 15:40,41.

Also look at Acts chapters 4 through 6; you see the disciples sharing, turning over posessions, giving to each according to need, setting up some to distribute provisions and not neglect the widows, with others laboring in the word and prayer. It is not stated explicitly, but it may well have been that not only the indigent got provided for out of the common store, but some of the "laboring oxen" also got a mouthful here and there.

The problem is when we codify this and set up offices. When the believers instititionalize the Spirit's move, the decline is inevitable. It follows as night follows day. We should not be surprised at the rapid and precipitous decline among those of the fellowship of faith.

I believe John stuck around long enough to see this happen, and he had the spiritual insight to recognize the trend, and he was inspired to write the book of Revelation. (Sorry, couldn't resist 'sticking' that last point in there ).