In this manner pray: Our Father in heaven...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

"When it comes to the matter of the Triune God, many Christians only care for their tradition, not for the clear, accurate word of the Bible. In order to preserve their tradition, they twist the words of Scripture and will not return absolutely to the pure word of the Bible. Because of this tradition, a fight is going on. Although we do not like to fight, we cannot avoid it.

"we do not like to fight"??????

Therefore, we must point out that many Christians hold a concept, which is certainly heretical, of two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and some, even of three Gods. It may be that they are not aware of this or that they hold it unconsciously and, thus, they may deny that they hold it. However, the concept held by them actually is heretical because it implies two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and, in some cases, three Gods.

I know some like Mormons hold to the concept of 3 Gods, or that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. However I have never heard anyone talk about 2 divine Fathers or 2 life giving Spirits. Never!

According to the basic revelation of the Bible, God's economy is to work Christ into His believers that they may become a living church to express God on earth. But in Christian history and in today's situation, we do not see this.

nor do we see this in the LC ! The LC/LSM has become the expression of Witness Lee!

What we see is merely a Christian religion with the Triune God as their object of worship plus a Savior who saves sinners from hell to heaven. In today's Christianity we see neither the enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ nor the practice of the proper church life.

For everything there is a season.. a time to be happy and a time to weep. We can't "always" be "enjoying" Christ. We can certainly be in His Presence in good times and in bad times. We have each other to lift us up when we are down and out, to give each other encouragement. But to say there is always 'enjoyment' in the church is false.

For this reason, during the past fifty years the Lord has come to show us His recovery of the experience of Christ and of the proper church life. Throughout the years that we have been burdened by the Lord with His recovery, we have been attacked by religion. We have been attacked because we have received a clear vision from the Lord regarding who Christ is.

The LC was attacked because they attacked the other flocks. Maybe God does not like denominations and divisions but the LC under Lee's leadership alienated everyone outside the LC including the saints' families if they were not part of the LC movement. The LC was not attacked because the LC had a 'clear vision'. It was attacked for thinking they were better than everyone else ! They became sectarian and cultish. That is what people hold against the Lee's teachings!

The Lord has shown us that Christ is the all-inclusive, wonderful One. He is all in all. He is God, the Creator, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and also the proper man. He is the reality of all divine attributes and of all human virtues. The hinge of all the aspects of this all-inclusive Christ is the living Spirit. We have no choice except to tell our fellow Christians that our Savior, Jesus Christ, is the living Spirit.

When did anyone of us do that ?? We went around saying "poor, poor Christianity!"

Undoubtedly, He is the Lamb of God and the Redeemer, but these are simply two aspects of this all-inclusive One. Christ, the all-inclusive One, is everything. The Bible even describes Him with the term "all in all" (Col. 3:11). Christ is the reality of every positive thing. He is light, life, righteousness, holiness, redemption, salvation, and everything. In our experience, He is the life-giving Spirit indwelling our human spirit.

I agree with this because as I pointed out, I have learned and still learning how to address God in His many Titles. Sometimes He is my Savior. Other times He is my Counselor. Sometimes I address Him as "Holy Spirit'. Mostly when I have lost something and can't find it. It is then that I always say 'Holy Spirit. Where did I put this or that?' And He always points me to them. Sometimes I pray "Our Father, My Father You Who are in heaven. You Whose Name is so Holy. May Your Kingdom come and may Your will be done TODAY... in me and in all Your people. Feed me today of Your daily Bread. The Bread of Life: Jesus. Give me to drink from the Fountain of Living Water. Thank You for forgiving me of all my sins. (That is why Jesus died on the cross right?) Help me to forgive those who have trespassed against me, who have harmed me and done me wrong. Just as YOU forgave me, forgive them too. Just as You had mercy on me, have Mercy on them as well. Lead me away from temptation. For Yours is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory forever and ever. (amen!)

Because we proclaim this, we are accused of being heretical. Our critics say that we teach heresy in telling people that Christ, the Son, is the Father as well as the Spirit. Today, many Christians do not believe that Christ is not only the Son, but also the Father and the Spirit.

Not sure if this is a misprint but what I have highlighted does not make sense. I know there are many Christians who do not believe Jesus is God. That He is only the Son of God.

Some of our critics say we teach that Christ is the Father and the Spirit, we are teaching modalism and denying the co-inherence and co-existence of the three Persons of the Godhead." We deny this accusation. If the critics were to ask us whether we believe in Matthew 3:16 and 17, where the Son is standing, the Spirit is descending, and the Father is speaking, we would answer that We believe it at least as much as they do. All three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were present at the same time. We fully believe in the co-inherence and co-existence of the Three of the Godhead. I not only believe Matthew 3:16 and 17, but all the verses that pertain to this subject. For example, Revelation 1:4 and 5 say, "Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ...." In these verses, the Father is the One "which is, and which was, and which is to come"; the Spirit is the "seven Spirits"; and the Son is Jesus Christ, "the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth." Here, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son are not only present after Christ's resurrection, but even after His ascension and after Pentecost. Many other verses reveal the same thing. Second Corinthians 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" (Gk.). Here we see the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Spirit. Furthermore, Ephesians 3:14-17 says, "I bow my knees unto the Father...that he would grant you...to be strengthened with might by his Spirit...that Christ may make his home in your hearts..." (Gk.). Once again, the Father, the Spirit, and Christ are all present at the same time. The charge that I am a modalist is false, and I absolutely repudiate it. Modalism teaches that God is not at the same time Father and Son and that the revelation of the Son ended with the ascension.

I don't have a problem with this because as I stated more than once, I have a relationship with the Father, The Word (the Son) and the Holy Spirit. The Father is the GLORY, like the sun. The Son, is His Word, the Light of this world and the Holy Spirit is the Voice of God, the warmthness we feel from the sun if we were to compare GOD's Glory to the sun.

But without a relationship, the definitions and doctrines and teachings and explanations are dung and worthless.

The permanence of the Father, Son, and Spirit was denied by modalism. Modalism is a heresy, and we do not believe in it." -- Witness Lee

ha-ha I have never develed into the study of Modalism and all the other isms out there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I know some like Mormons hold to the concept of 3 Gods, or that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. However I have never heard anyone talk about 2 divine Fathers or 2 life giving Spirits. Never!

That was WL's argumentative ploy. If you were talking about cats, he'd convince you that you were really talking about dogs. Then he'd begin to show you what was "really" a cat. As long as he'd convinced you that the first idea was heretical, and his was different from the first idea, he could sell you an armadillo with a sign "cat" hanging over it's neck, and you'd buy it. In whatever form he gave you: poster, CD, cassette tape, pamphlet, book, magazine, VHS tape... you'd line up and buy one. I was also there in line, waiting to buy. So I know the drill.

[Boxjobox]

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 NKJV) Jesus told us his words were not his own, but what he received from the Father, and as his disciples we are to keep his words. For WL to set up the "oh Lord Jesus" prayers was either the act of the deputy authority or the act of an upstart. Methinks it was the latter! Throughout the NT the writers emphasize the worship and prayers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. To substitute this with the " oh Lord Jesus" praying was to totally disrespect the work of Christ, which was to bring us back to fellowship with our Father God, and to greatly disrespect the heart of God. It also shows the ineptness of the elders, who should have protected us from such a system of error, but instead, cared for the speaking of a man more than God. It also shows our gullibility to group mentality and man's teachings over the authority of the scripture. The "all inclusive Christ" indoctrination blinded us from what God our Father is seeking!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 NKJV) Jesus told us his words were not his own, but what he received from the Father, and as his disciples we are to keep his words. For WL to set up the "oh Lord Jesus" prayers was either the act of the deputy authority or the act of an upstart. Methinks it was the latter! Throughout the NT the writers emphasize the worship and prayers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. To substitute this with the " oh Lord Jesus" praying was to totally disrespect the work of Christ, which was to bring us back to fellowship with our Father God, and to greatly disrespect the heart of God. It also shows the ineptness of the elders, who should have protected us from such a system of error, but instead, cared for the speaking of a man more than God. It also shows our gullibility to group mentality and man's teachings over the authority of the scripture. The "all inclusive Christ" indoctrination blinded us from what God our Father is seeking!

Right on the money Boxjobox. Concerning prayer, I don't know how to pray:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[aron]

In the book 'Concerning the Triune God', Witness Lee addresses the question in the following way:

". . . if you say the Son is the Father, then how could the Son pray to the Father? . . . The Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Since the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the Sent One, why could it not be that the Lord is the Son who prays and also the Father who listens to the praying? The Father who listens to the praying is the Son who prays; and the Son who prays is also the Father who listens to the prayer."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

In the book 'Concerning the Triune God', Witness Lee addresses the question in the following way:

". . . if you say the Son is the Father, then how could the Son pray to the Father? . . . The Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Since the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the Sent One, why could it not be that the Lord is the Son who prays and also the Father who listens to the praying? The Father who listens to the praying is the Son who prays; and the Son who prays is also the Father who listens to the prayer."

Only irrational fanatics would or can buy into this crazy circular illogic. Sober minds would reject it out of hand. In short, they get another thing I heard a thousand times if once: They are completely out of their minds.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Only irrational fanatics would or can buy into this crazy circular illogic. Sober minds would reject it out of hand. In short, they get another thing I heard a thousand times if once: They are completely out of their minds.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

Only irrational fanatics would or can buy into this crazy circular illogic. Sober minds would reject it out of hand. In short, they get another thing I heard a thousand times if once: They are completely out of their minds.

What? Are you saying WL was "in the mind" not "in the spirit"? Oh My!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

In the book 'Concerning the Triune God', Witness Lee addresses the question in the following way:

". . . if you say the Son is the Father, then how could the Son pray to the Father? . . . The Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Since the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the Sent One, why could it not be that the Lord is the Son who prays and also the Father who listens to the praying? The Father who listens to the praying is the Son who prays; and the Son who prays is also the Father who listens to the prayer."

That's all fine and well....BUT did he teach the sheeple to have a relationship with the Father, with the Son and with the Holy Spirit? God has many Titles. He is the Father of fathers. He is The Redeemer and Savior. He is the ultimate Counselor. He is the KING of kings and LORD of lords.

But what I remember and what I have seen after leaving, God is merely "Lord" and "O Lord Jesus" in the LC. He is nothing more or nothing less.

Gone are the days when people sang "We have a wonderful Spirit in us and He is the Life Giving Spirit in us."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

In the book 'Concerning the Triune God', Witness Lee addresses the question in the following way:

". . . if you say the Son is the Father, then how could the Son pray to the Father? . . . The Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Since the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the Sent One, why could it not be that the Lord is the Son who prays and also the Father who listens to the praying? The Father who listens to the praying is the Son who prays; and the Son who prays is also the Father who listens to the prayer."

In the short bit you quote here, with the elipses to show something omitted, is Lee really saying one thing then the opposite, or did he ask a hypthetical question then set out to answer by saying it is simply so?

Either way, as Westley said, mocking Vizzini, "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect." (The Princess Bride)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 NKJV) Jesus told us his words were not his own, but what he received from the Father, and as his disciples we are to keep his words. For WL to set up the "oh Lord Jesus" prayers was either the act of the deputy authority or the act of an upstart. Methinks it was the latter! Throughout the NT the writers emphasize the worship and prayers to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. To substitute this with the " oh Lord Jesus" praying was to totally disrespect the work of Christ, which was to bring us back to fellowship with our Father God, and to greatly disrespect the heart of God. It also shows the ineptness of the elders, who should have protected us from such a system of error, but instead, cared for the speaking of a man more than God. It also shows our gullibility to group mentality and man's teachings over the authority of the scripture. The "all inclusive Christ" indoctrination blinded us from what God our Father is seeking!

I hear ya and get you. Not defending Lee whatsoever, just want to remind us all, Jesus did say in HIS OWN WORDS: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but BY ME.

From my own personal experience: A few months before I got saved, I was seeking and was being visited by God the Holy Spirit. I did not know this of course. But as I began writing a 'Dear God' letter, I heard a still Small VOICE tell me to call on / pray to Jesus. I thought to myself, why should I go through a 'middle man' to get to GOD. NOPE! I decided to cut out the Middle Man, Jesus, and cried to Almighty God to rescue me.

Had I prayed to Jesus, who knows? I might have been rescued a lot earlier! Still God did not force Himself on me and patiently waited until I was 'ready'.

That said, yeah the mantra 'O Lord Jesus' has become a vain, repetitious broken record. There is no Love in calling His Name in such a manner. There is no change in people's lives after chanting "O Lord Jesus" over and over and over again..and if they are not chanting "O Lord Jesus", they are chanting "O LORD"...

May God have Mercy on them as He had Mercy on us and helped us to escape the LC clutches.