In this manner pray: Our Father in heaven...

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

Only irrational fanatics would or can buy into this crazy circular illogic. Sober minds would reject it out of hand. In short, they get another thing I heard a thousand times if once: They are completely out of their minds.

What? Are you saying WL was "in the mind" not "in the spirit"? Oh My!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

What? Are you saying WL was "in the mind" not "in the spirit"? Oh My!

I'm pretty sure I saved the video of WL admitting that what he did he did mostly with the natural man.

Here's a transcript:
Besides his well-known repentance in 1997, WL also had a very heartfelt confession to the LC back in May of 1994 (word-for-word transcription from the audio):

"Do you believe whatever I have been, Witness Lee, have been the past 32 years in the U.S. has been in resurrection? Even I myself don’t believe so. I have to admit, even shamefully before you all, and I have to ask you for your forgiveness. Bigger part in my natural life. Small part in resurrection. I do not deny and I can not deny - I was carrying out the Lord’s ministry, especially the ministry of life to establish churches. I can not deny. Some part is in resurrection. But not all parts. Could you agree with me? Right? Answer this!" (Practical Points Concerning Blending, Message 2)

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm pretty sure I saved the video of WL admitting that what he did he did mostly with the natural man.

Here's a transcript:
Besides his well-known repentance in 1997, WL also had a very heartfelt confession to the LC back in May of 1994 (word-for-word transcription from the audio):

"Do you believe whatever I have been, Witness Lee, have been the past 32 years in the U.S. has been in resurrection? Even I myself don’t believe so. I have to admit, even shamefully before you all, and I have to ask you for your forgiveness. Bigger part in my natural life. Small part in resurrection. I do not deny and I can not deny - I was carrying out the Lord’s ministry, especially the ministry of life to establish churches. I can not deny. Some part is in resurrection. But not all parts. Could you agree with me? Right? Answer this!" (Practical Points Concerning Blending, Message 2)

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3 NKJV)
Jesus, before he was betrayed was praying to the Father and said these words which John recorded concerning eternal life. For WL to say that he was carrying out the ministry of life, yet create a practice that ignored the Father, means he missed at least half of the equation. Jesus labored to be sure we understood the paramount importance of knowing the Father, and here, he calls the Father the only true God. The understanding that we can call God our Father and that He sent Jesus Christ is the gospel! WL was actually an enemy of the gospel in that he set up a false system of belief and practice. To say that he was often in the natural man is a gross understatement.

[Boxjobox]

I do not want to give the impression that it is wrong to pray/talk to Jesus. My main point is that Jesus spoke forth the importance of praying to the Father. It's strange that it seemed like one of WL's favorite books was Ephesians, which when I read it, I see that Paul likewise emphasized praying to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, and explained that it is through Christ that we now have access to God. Paul does not teach in Ephesians to pray to Jesus but to the Father--such as 5:20 giving thanks always to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. WL must have been deep in the natural man when he shared this book.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I do not want to give the impression that it is wrong to pray/talk to Jesus. My main point is that Jesus spoke forth the importance of praying to the Father. It's strange that it seemed like one of WL's favorite books was Ephesians, which when I read it, I see that Paul likewise emphasized praying to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, and explained that it is through Christ that we now have access to God. Paul does not teach in Ephesians to pray to Jesus but to the Father--such as 5:20 giving thanks always to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. WL must have been deep in the natural man when he shared this book.

In my communion with GOD, I sometimes am led to address Him as "Father God", other times as "Holy Spirit", other times "Jehovah Raphi (Healer), Jehovah Jirah (Provider), Jehovah Shalom (Peace), and many other titles of El Shaddai (Almighty God) including Lord Jesus, Dear Jesus, Sweet Lord Jesus.

WL's teaching problem is he boxed in the LC with mostly if not exclusively saying 'O LORD JESUS' to the point it became vain repitition eliminating real, intimate communion with our Creator.

His explanation of the 'processed' God did not bring anyone closer (to my knowledge) with God. It was just DEAD theology he conjured up in the flesh to make himself look knowledgeable. I am not aware of Lee himself giving an up to date testimony of his personal ongoing relationship with our Redeemer, Savior, Lord and King.

Before the 'prophesying' came into play, the saints (at least in San Diego) stood up and gave personal testimonies of their 'experience' of Christ and / or how God through the message given opened their eyes to understand something they had not previously.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

. . . . Paul likewise emphasized praying to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, and explained that it is through Christ that we now have access to God. . . .

It seems that "through Christ" was something he (Lee) couldn't get his arms around unless that meant to pray to Jesus first. But to me, it seems that the meaning is that "through Christ" would be more like synonymous with "because of Christ" in this context. Therefore, because of Christ — because he did all that he did to open the way to God, including death (concurrent with the tearing of the veil), burial, resurrection, etc. — we now have access to the Father.

So the instruction to pray to the Father remains. It is was not just a "pre-cross" instruction that was replaced with a new instruction to pray to Christ afterward.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by OBW

It seems that "through Christ" was something he (Lee) couldn't get his arms around unless that meant to pray to Jesus first. But to me, it seems that the meaning is that "through Christ" would be more like synonymous with "because of Christ" in this context. Therefore, because of Christ — because he did all that he did to open the way to God, including death (concurrent with the tearing of the veil), burial, resurrection, etc. — we now have access to the Father.

So the instruction to pray to the Father remains. It is was not just a "pre-cross" instruction that was replaced with a new instruction to pray to Christ afterward.

Romans is a good example of this--you would think that if the NT way was to pray to Jesus, Paul's letter to the Romans would be full of prayers to Jesus and an admonition to do so. Instead, It is "with one mind and one mouth glorify yhe God and Father of our Lord Jesus (15.6)". Instead, WL focused on calling on the name of the Lord-oh Lord Jesus--which may not even be a clear understanding of Romans 10.13. Paul's focus in Romans is the depths of the riches in the working of God, so we can call Abba Father. WL's system of error mutilated the scripture- but sold a lot of messages!

[OBW]

Oh Lord our God; great and mighty in word and deed.

We long for the arrival of your kingdom,

But confess we seek the destination at the expense of the journey.

Keep us in your will as we toil in life that we would shine as lights as we realize our purpose as your image on the earth.

May our love for others flow from our love for you, the God of true love.

Through Christ our Lord, aided by the Spirit; One God forever.

Amen