The Experience of Christ

[Cal]

If someone says "I experienced Christ" and you ask "How?" and they can't be more specific, then you know they have a problem. But if someone says "I experienced Christ" and you say "How?" and they say "I enjoyed his loving presence." Or "I felt he wanted me to give money to a poor family." Then in that case, what's the real problem with the term?

I don't have a problem with the term and I'm not fuzzy. I know what I experience. But the shorthand just helps sometimes. It's no worse than if someone asks if you want to go get a hamburger and you say, "No, thanks. I just had dinner." You don't feel the need to say "I just had two tacos, beans and rice, guacamole, a large coke and sopapillas."

"The experience of Christ" is to me just a catch-all phrase. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as when pressed you can describe each experience in a more specific way.

Let me ask a question this way. If I come home and my wife says, "How was your day?" and I say, "Great! I had some amazing experiences of Christ today!" And she says, "Really! Tell me about it!" And I go on to tell her how I had a great quiet time where I felt the Lord speaking to me about Matthew 5:16. And how I was in the line in the grocery store and I felt the Lord nudging me to "let my light shine," and I asked a lady in line if I could pay for her groceries just to show her that Jesus loved her, and felt the Lord's strong confirmation of this act, and I drove home full of joy.

Now, is it okay to start that conversation by saying "I had some amazing experiences of Christ?" Or is that bad, too? Please enlighten me, all you experience of Christ Nazis.

[HERn]

There was a Lord's Table meeting at a certain local church after which all proclaimed that "Christ had been experienced". Immediately after the meeting one "small potato" brother leaned over and told another brother that he was sorry for not showing up to help mow the grass; while a so-called "leading" brother walked by and ignored the waving and calls of a grieving brother who was seeking reconciliation because he was told by the "leading" brother that "his humanity is deplorable, his kids were not in the church-life, and that he was 150 pounds over weight and could no longer sit on the good furniture". Of the two, which brother most likely "experienced Christ" at the meeting?


Matthew 7:15-20Amplified Bible (AMP)

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.(A)
16 You will [a]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [[b]worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [c]excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will [d]fully know them by their fruits.

Momma always said "pretty is as pretty does". LSM says if the leading brother was "in his spirit" it's all good.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

There was a Lord's Table meeting at a certain local church after which all proclaimed that "Christ had been experienced". Immediately after the meeting one "small potato" brother leaned over and told another brother that he was sorry for not showing up to help mow the grass; while a so-called "leading" brother walked by and ignored the waving and calls of a grieving brother who was seeking reconciliation because he was told by the "leading" brother that "his humanity is deplorable, his kids were not in the church-life, and that he was 150 pounds over weight and could no longer sit on the good furniture". Of the two, which brother most likely "experienced Christ" at the meeting?

Momma always said "pretty is as pretty does". LSM says if the leading brother was "in his spirit" it's all good.

Or are you someone who proclaims how right you are. Or do you have a modicum of humility. As per, Luke 18:13:

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'"

[Cal]

I agree completely that specifics are often better that generalities. But generalities do serve a purpose. I don't see the sense in banning them.

Besides, in talking about the "stew" we lose track that the LCM was very specific about certain things and they still went off-track. They would talk about "loving the Lord," and "walking in the spirit," "following the new testament ministry," "being a testimony," "being absolute," "being in the Word," "being obedient to the heavenly vision."

In all these things, they had a proprietary meaning, rather than the mainstream meaning. Specificity didn't help them a bit with avoiding error. Because in the end it doesn't matter how specific your words are if you have a warped view of them in the first place.

So if I say, "experience Christ," that's a lot better than an LCMer saying "be obedient to the heavenly vision." Because my "Christ" is more legitimate that their "heavenly vision." They are more specific, but I'm more according to the truth. Or if I'm not, someone is.

[UntoHim]

Christian experience is rightly used when it helps to convince us that the events narrated in the New Testament actually did occur; but it can never enable us to be Christians whether the events occurred or not. It is a fair flower, and should be prized as a gift of God.
But cut it from its root in the blessed Book, and it soon withers away and dies.

J. Gresham Machen

What say you, forum?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim quoting Machen

Christian experience is rightly used when it helps to convince us that the events narrated in the New Testament actually did occur ...

What say you, forum?

Interesting bro UntoHim. So according to Machen experiencing Christ needs to be rightly used. And apparently that is to prove the New Testament true.

But if we are really experiencing Christ, the real Christ and a real experience, we don't really need to know the status of New Testament stories ... we've arrived BY and THRU Christ and have our own true story to tell ... perchance a new new testament.

I think that's what Igzy is trying to say.

What say you Igzy? and well, goes without saying, UntoHim?

[UntoHim]

Harold, you left out the best part of the quote:

It is a fair flower, and should be prized as a gift of God.
But cut it from its root in the blessed Book, and it soon withers away and dies.

What words of wisdom from a true man of God who put Christian experience in it's proper perspective, and in so few words!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Interesting bro UntoHim. So according to Machen experiencing Christ needs to be rightly used. And apparently that is to prove the New Testament true.

But if we are really experiencing Christ, the real Christ and a real experience, we don't really need to know the status of New Testament stories ... we've arrived BY and THRU Christ and have our own true story to tell ... perchance a new new testament.

I think that's what Igzy is trying to say.

What say you Igzy? and well, goes without saying, UntoHim?

No, that wasn't it. Sorry.

We need to be triangulated Christians. We need experience, we need the Word and we need to check our fruit. Each balances the others.

Word knowledge tells us what kind of fruit we should have, and keeps us from going off the deep end with experience.

Fruit focuses our experience on a practical result, and keeps us humble about our word knowledge.

Experience sheds light on our word knowledge, and empowers us for fruit-bearing.

Lee talked only about two, experience (the Spirit) and the Word. But actually we need three: experience, the word and fruit.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Igzy

in the end it doesn't matter how specific your words are if you have a warped view of them in the first place.

Frame it. It is a classic statement!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree completely that specifics are often better that generalities. But generalities do serve a purpose. I don't see the sense in banning them.

Besides, in talking about the "stew" we lose track that the LCM was very specific about certain things and they still went off-track. They would talk about "loving the Lord," and "walking in the spirit," "following the new testament ministry," "being a testimony," "being absolute," "being in the Word," "being obedient to the heavenly vision."

In all these things, they had a proprietary meaning, rather than the mainstream meaning. Specificity didn't help them a bit with avoiding error. Because in the end it doesn't matter how specific your words are if you have a warped view of them in the first place.

So if I say, "experience Christ," that's a lot better than an LCMer saying "be obedient to the heavenly vision." Because my "Christ" is more legitimate that their "heavenly vision." They are more specific, but I'm more according to the truth. Or if I'm not, someone is.

I don't think we want to ban your generalities, but rather to accept them as provisional, as having subjective meaning that isn't necessarily transferable. The specifics of your experience are yours. I might not have the same subjective assessment of the same circumstances. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong or right. So we don't deny your experience, if you don't deny us the right to have a different response to the same experience.

And on that note I'd like to revisit your earlier question:

Originally Posted by Igzy

"The experience of Christ" is to me just a catch-all phrase. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as when pressed you can describe each experience in a more specific way.

Let me ask a question this way. If I come home and my wife says, "How was your day?" and I say, "Great! I had some amazing experiences of Christ today!" And she says, "Really! Tell me about it!" And I go on to tell her how I had a great quiet time where I felt the Lord speaking to me about Matthew 5:16. And how I was in the line in the grocery store and I felt the Lord nudging me to "let my light shine," and I asked a lady in line if I could pay for her groceries just to show her that Jesus loved her, and felt the Lord's strong confirmation of this act, and I drove home full of joy.

Now, is it okay to start that conversation by saying "I had some amazing experiences of Christ?" Or is that bad, too? Please enlighten me, all you experience of Christ Nazis..

Suppose you went home and told your wife, "I really felt the Father's love today", or "I felt the presence of an angel near me when this happened", or "I felt the fellowship and guidance of the Holy Spirit" in the same specific circumstance. Now, who would deny you that? But at the same time you have your subjective response and I have mine. I don't think any response should be seen as a denial of any other.

Now, to fruits: I got hailed in the hallway yesterday at work, and it was a former colleague who'd stopped by to visit. Unfortunately when I heard someone calling my name, and turned, and saw her, I couldn't remember her name. Later, the Lord rebuked me by saying, "The reason you couldn't remember her name is that you never prayed for her." God loves her: who's praying for this person? I felt very convicted. Now I worked with her for 3 years and I'm sure I had many experiences of love, joy, and grace during that time. But I never prayed for my colleague. So how much fruits did I bear during that time? I dare not say none, but I dare not say very much, either. So if I don't dare to measure my fruits I don't really hang too much weight on my experiences, either. I forget what is behind and press on.

So the idea that it isn't wise to pay much attention to our experiences as something in and of themselves, while we are yet in the way, seems fitting and valid. Everything still has to be proved, of what sort it is. And that includes me. (Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not questioning my salvation or anyone else's, just that our string of "experiences" is still playing out, so don't judge anything or anyone before its time).

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

There was a Lord's Table meeting at a certain local church after which all proclaimed that "Christ had been experienced". Immediately after the meeting one "small potato" brother leaned over and told another brother that he was sorry for not showing up to help mow the grass; while a so-called "leading" brother walked by and ignored the waving and calls of a grieving brother who was seeking reconciliation because he was told by the "leading" brother that "his humanity is deplorable, his kids were not in the church-life, and that he was 150 pounds over weight and could no longer sit on the good furniture". Of the two, which brother most likely "experienced Christ" at the meeting?

I remember seeing the Congressional Record where they cited all the achievements of WL. How many thousands of local churches were "raised up", how many years of service, and people who were helped in their spiritual journeys. But they didn't mention defrauding the saints with Daystar and other schemes. They didn't mention that WL couldn't control his own family, whom he allowed to prey on the saints. They didn't mention that when his children were exposed, that WL "shot the messengers". They didn't mention that when he purged those who tried to hold him to minimal spiritual standards, of the "turmoils" and "rebellions" that followed forthwith. They didn't mention in all those "storms", how many families broke apart because some were "of Lee" and some couldn't stomach the hypocrisy any more. How many saints were discouraged and gave up on their Christian journeys because they were "wrecked" for the LC and when "the church ground" dissolved around them they had no clue how to go on with the Lord.

Philip Lin, in his book "Sacrifice and Sail On", said "how much WL loved the Lord"... but how much did he love the Lord revealed in scripture, versus the Lord that emerged from his hermeneutics? If that wasn't a different Christ it was at least a truncated one. And speaking of love, how much love did the "quarantined ones" and the "rebels", and for that matter those in "Christianity" get? If you say that you love God but don't love your neighbor, what love is that? And I should hold myself to the same standard. So I don't judge the quantity nor quality of my experiences, nor of yours. God will do that, in the end. I have my hands full already, believe me.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

There was a Lord's Table meeting at a certain local church after which all proclaimed that "Christ had been experienced". Immediately after the meeting one "small potato" brother leaned over and told another brother that he was sorry for not showing up to help mow the grass; while a so-called "leading" brother walked by and ignored the waving and calls of a grieving brother who was seeking reconciliation because he was told by the "leading" brother that "his humanity is deplorable, his kids were not in the church-life, and that he was 150 pounds over weight and could no longer sit on the good furniture". Of the two, which brother most likely "experienced Christ" at the meeting?

I guess what I'm saying is similar to what many are posting here. Whatever "experiencing Christ" means, if it's genuine then it should lead to a transformation that makes me more like Christ (whatever that means). In some way it's a similar story for all of us. Kind of like Saul who started out breathing murder to the Jewish followers of Christ, then somehow became beloved brother Paul who like Jesus laid down his life for others. If at the same time you're telling me how much you experience Christ you also lust for my money to start an RV business while your son is allegedly abusing sisters and you slander honest brothers that try to bring correction into your life don't be surprised if I call you a hypocrite and stop buying your books!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Now, is it okay to start that conversation by saying "I had some amazing experiences of Christ?" Or is that bad, too? Please enlighten me, all you experience of Christ Nazis.

It doesn't seem bad, to me. Dave mentioned the idea of "outcome" and it is perhaps relevant here. Certainly it's been my incessant theme in this thread:

I just don't see how it is possible to say one is experiencing Christ when the primary outcome leads to rattling off the "correct" doctrines and beliefs. To me, it also doesn't mean that I get with a group of people who believe the exact same doctrines and we all experience Christ in the same way and have little toleration for other perspectives. If reading the Bible and praying leads to a change in positive outcomes in our outlook of our fellow human beings, world and other life then we have the makings of truly experiencing Christ from my perspective. There are only two commandments: love God and love our neighbor. I just don't see a lot of love coming out from those espousing that they are the true lovers of God who experience Christ. I am sure that "your" experience of Christ has changed you but what are the outcomes..

Suppose you had a great experience of Christ. Peace, joy, the sense of being forgiven, and loved, guidance, intervention, salvation in one of a myriads of ways. Wonderful. Now, is that part of a process of change, or today's "feel-good" moment? I admit I'm biased from my LC time because the "feel-good moments" of being sensorily stimulated by shouting, singing, pray-chant-reading (or whatever) was the stand-in for the experience of Christ. And what was the outcome?

I'd like to give my own example. Once I went to a church and they preached the gospel from the pulpit and I got saved. Now, there was an outcome. I believed, I confessed, I prayed. But that led to another process, the outcome of which is not definitively settled. I still have a journey.

I have much to be thankful for. All those good things are from the Father of lights. They are "experiences of my Father's love". Likewise I have many "experiences of Christ" (presumably). And I won't deny your experiences; whatever validity they have is known to the Father. If He says, "amen", then fine.

But my point remains, as well: "Forgetting what is behind me and stretching to what is before". And with that measuring stick all my "experiences of Christ" really don't matter. It's like the two sons, one of which said "I will" and the second refused. Then the first goes back to sleep and the second repents and goes out and obeys the Father's commands. Which one did the will of the Father (Matt 21:31)? The second son. But initially it looked like the first son had the right experience, of giving the "right" answer. But while we are yet in the way, we should be very wary of handling our experiences. There is no general "experience of Christ" which stands immutable. But there are experiences, tied to specifics. For me, I think of John's, "We were witnesses of that One's glory" (John 1:14). If that isn't an experience of Jesus Christ what is? Obviously John never forgot it and it was a referential touch-stone for him the rest of his life. I hope we all have those experiences.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

It doesn't seem bad, to me. Dave mentioned the idea of "outcome" and it is perhaps relevant here. Certainly it's been my incessant theme in this thread:

That's what I said. Look at the fruit. Is the fruit of the Spirit there? Whether you have the absolute correct doctrines or not, whether you are clear about whether we should say "experience Christ" or not, or whether you say it or not. The bottom line is the fruit.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If someone says "I experienced Christ" and you ask "How?" and they can't be more specific, then you know they have a problem. But if someone says "I experienced Christ" and you say "How?" and they say "I enjoyed his loving presence." Or "I felt he wanted me to give money to a poor family." Then in that case, what's the real problem with the term?

I don't have a problem with the term and I'm not fuzzy. ....etc....

"The experience of Christ" is to me just a catch-all phrase. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as when pressed you can describe each experience in a more specific way.

Let me ask a question this way. If I come home and my wife says, "How was your day?" and I say, "Great! I had some amazing experiences of Christ today!" And she says, "Really! Tell me about it!" And I go on to tell her how I had a great quiet time where I felt the Lord speaking to me about Matthew 5:16. And how I was in the line in the grocery store and I felt the Lord nudging me to "let my light shine," and I asked a lady in line if I could pay for her groceries just to show her that Jesus loved her, and felt the Lord's strong confirmation of this act, and I drove home full of joy.

Now, is it okay to start that conversation by saying "I had some amazing experiences of Christ?" Or is that bad, too? Please enlighten me, all you experience of Christ Nazis.

The phrase 'I had an experience of Christ' imho is strictly an LC phrase, coined by Nee or Lee. I have never, ever heard any believer outside of the LC realm use that phrase but most true believers do have an experience of Christ. However they express it like this: God spoke to me. God told me. I felt the Holy Spirit lead me. I felt His Presence. The Lord opened my eyes. OR more often than not, The "Anointing" of the Lord was all over me today, meaning the Power of the Holy Spirit was on them. I hear the charismatic churchers use this phrase a lot. And since that phrase is often used in the bible, I'm cool with it. Having done a study on the meaning of the Anointing, it is the biblical expression of 'having had an experience of Christ.

A couple of days ago, my friend's 16 yr old grandson told his grandma, my friend this: Grandma. I was feeling really sad today. And out of nowhere, Jesus went 'POOF' inside me and I became very happy. He really went POOF inside of me!! and I have been happy all day since then." Aww... he's really a sweet guy. Unchurched for the most part but reads his bible and prays a lot...truly loves the Lord. He has lots of 'experiences of Christ' and shares them with us all the time. He just doesn't use that catch all phrase. And neither do I. I assure you if I told my friends 'I had an experience of Christ today', they'd say ' a what????

scriptures on the anointing:
Leviticus 8:12
And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head and anointed him, to sanctify him.

Isaiah 10:27
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

scriptures on 'the experience (of Christ)':

Genesis 30:27
And Laban said unto him, “I pray thee, if I have found favor in thine eyes, tarry; for I have learned by experience that the Lord hath blessed me for thy sake.”

Philippians 3:10-11
I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death,

as an fyi....
some translations use the word 'experience' a lot more than others. NLT (New Living Translation) for one. NKJV uses the word 'experience' only a handful of times.

Shalom in Christ Jesus!

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

scriptures on 'the experience (of Christ)':

Genesis 30:27
And Laban said unto him, “I pray thee, if I have found favor in thine eyes, tarry; for I have learned by experience that the Lord hath blessed me for thy sake.”

Philippians 3:10-11
I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death,

as an fyi....
some translations use the word 'experience' a lot more than others. NLT (New Living Translation) for one. NKJV uses the word 'experience' only a handful of times.

Shalom in Christ Jesus!

You can experience God. You can experience the Spirit of God. You can experience Christ. You can experience peace, and joy. You can experience heavenly visitations. You can experience eating a hamburger. You can experience a lot of things. But in the end, what you experience will be determined by God, and by God alone. And imho the people who claim a lot of experience here in the flesh are those with the least experience. Because they don't know how to be quiet. They want a parade, today, while the battle rages. And this is NOT a jab at anyone here on this forum! This is simply a principle. If you make a lot of fuss to be something, or have something, here on Earth, you are in a vulnerable position, and risk losing whatever you think you have. The battle rages on. Don't make a parade of your gifts. Use them wisely. Satan would love to get you off-balance.

There was a guy in the "Lakeland revival" in Florida named Todd Bentley. He was "anointed" with "gifts", at least he persuaded himself and many others. They made him an "apostle". Later he decided that he wanted a new wife, from among the congregants. He and one of the parishioners fell in love so he wanted to dump his current wife and start over with a new one. Now, maybe Bentley had some genuine experiences. I don't know. But somewhere along the way his experiences deluded him. And this is not only a peril for the Charismatic movement, with their emphasis on experience (and I lump the LC fully in that fold, even without the miracles and tongues) that jumping up and shouting and rolling one's eyes become the sufficient "works" or "fruits". In other words, God put His Spirit on me, and God's works and promises can't be wrong, so I am going on to glory! And your living becomes more and more incidental. You have the anointing, so you claim, and begin to feel invulnerable, and invariably suffer loss. And you hurt others who've put their trust in your claims.

I had experiences of anointing, and blessing, and I also had experiences like Peter where I went outside and wept in darkness. In our experiences we may sense apparent "gain", and also apparent "loss". But at the end of the day we soldier on; God will keep score. Believe me, God is paying attention! Don't focus on the score, on the sum of your experiences. Focus on God's Christ. He is the one who passed the test, and received everlasting glory. Forget about your teachings, your impressions of those teachings, or your organizational position, or lack thereof. God's Christ is shining before us. All of His experiences were fully tested and proved. Don't look at yourself; look at Him.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

You can experience God. You can experience the Spirit of God. You can experience Christ. You can experience peace, and joy. You can experience heavenly visitations. You can experience eating a hamburger. You can experience a lot of things. But in the end, what you experience will be determined by God, and by God alone. And imho the people who claim a lot of experience here in the flesh are those with the least experience. ..... But at the end of the day we soldier on; God will keep score. Believe me, God is paying attention! Don't focus on the score, on the sum of your experiences. Focus on God's Christ. He is the one who passed the test, and received everlasting glory. Forget about your teachings, your impressions of those teachings, or your organizational position, or lack thereof. ..... Don't look at yourself; look at Him.

amen brother Aron! Well said! Any "experiences of Christ" should only draw us nearer to our Creator that His WILL be done in us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Any "experiences of Christ" should only draw us nearer to our Creator that His WILL be done in us.

The Bible expresses God's will. It points to the person of Jesus Christ, who fully expressed God's will, on Earth, and has been raised to eternal Glory. We look in the Bible and by faith perceive Jesus Christ and endevour to obey, and follow. We become, in effect, disciples of the Jesus revealed therein.

So our actions, our attempts to obey and follow, becomes a behavioral pattern, an experience set. We no longer are hearers but doers of the Word. And the Spirit comes alongside (the Paraclete) because we are unable to match our Savior in full. (At least I am; some may be fully transformed. I don't know). This experience of the 'parousia' of the Holy Spirit, which is an "amen" from the Father, is meant to encourage, enlighten, and somewhat adjust us on the journey. We are thus motivated to press on. The experience of the Spirit overcomes our weakness and darkness and gives us breath to continue.

Now all this I see as somewhat in line with the previous posts by Igzy and UntoHim. But I'd like to add another item: the fellowship of the ekklesia, which is essentially a 'group consensus' of what the Word is saying. Otherwise our experiences may fool us, and we become sensory addicts. We'll want visions and bright clouds and voices from heaven. We'll only trust our experiences, which will over-ride and eventually occlude the Word. We'll overly rely on our special 'revelation' which may go alongside the Word for a time, and tolerate it, but ultimately this proprietary revelation will triumph and we'll disregard the Word.

"Your old men will see visions, and your young men will dream dreams"... I think that's good. But our visions and dreams need to be tempered in the church. You don't know how many people I've met who have been driven from the flock by the power of their visions. They are essentially unable to have fellowship, because they'll wave the Bible at you, with their special verses and their special experiences and their special interpretations. They're unable to receive the correction of the flock.

So our experience of the community of faith is also essential. If you don't have anyone around you who can say "no", where will your revelations, and your experiences take you? The Bible is no match for the fallen soul. This was arguably WL's greatest failure: he built a society that simply couldn't tell him "no". And so he and his followers went into the ditch, Bible and all.