Witness Lee and AW Tozer

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Really any teacher or leader is in danger of producing followers, and they don't have to even try. People are bound to follow those who they find to be helpful.

That is so true. And some helpers are enablers for the codependent types.

I discovered this at a local Church of Christ (Campbellites), in Sunday School class. When I pointed out Peter was naked a sister freaked out and said that couldn't be true. And when the preacher who was leading the class confirmed what I said she freaked out even more and said, "Why would they put that in the Bible?" Then she continued to work the matter up into a lather with other sisters, after the class. A sort jibber-jabbering, like a bee hive, was traveling at the speed of memes, passed to other sisters, before the worship service. Like naked Peter was just discover, in the Bible, no less.

So I got a call after church services by the pastor telling me that I was trying to feed meat to milk drinkers (I'm thinking, 'naked Peter is meat' but didn't say anything). These milk drinkers have grown children, and gray hair. How long are they going to remain milk drinkers?

Sadly, even in this little local church, dependency is being enabled. And both the dependents and the enablers are to be blamed. There's a comfort zone found in the two-sides-of-the-same-coin dynamic.

But I have no room to speak, and shouldn't judge. If honest I have to admit that, I once was a co-dependent on Witness Lee. Shame shame on me ... that I found a comfort in that. If I can depend on Lee then I'm off the hook.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sadly, even in this little local church, dependency is being enabled. And both the dependents and the enablers are to be blamed. There's a comfort zone found in the two-sides-of-the-same-coin dynamic.

But I have no room to speak, and shouldn't judge. If honest I have to admit that, I once was a co-dependent on Witness Lee. Shame shame on me ... that I found a comfort in that. If I can depend on Lee then I'm off the hook.

Dependency is an interesting issue. People want leaders. Just look at how uncomfortable people get in situations where there is no one to take charge.

Actually there was an article I saw about a week ago containing something that none other than Stephen Kaung spoke to a group of people who had come out of a cult. What he says is interesting and it ties into the dependency issue. Also notice how quickly parallels can be drawn from what is said to the legacy of Lee that Kaung would have been well aware of. I will just post part of it, the rest is at the link:

So, when one person became the authority; and I think it begins, it began about 20 years ago, is that it? Roughly, that was the time that a lot of these began, it is a kind of reaction. In the beginning it was a time when all these young people wanted to be free and then out of that comes the young people who wanted to go in the opposite direction and wanted to find authority. It is around that time. First of all you find this Jesus movement and things like that, and subculture began to develop and people just wanted to be free with no authority, no organization, nothing, throw away everything, but then a reaction came in and as a result, out of that you find the different groups, for instance, like The Children of God, is one of them.

And it began as a person who took authority and young people just reversed their feeling because they are looking for an authority and somebody came and became that authority. The result is the people who are in that group begin to loose their individuality.They cannot make any decisions because they are not supposed to and they don’t want to, because if someone can make the decision for you, it takes all the responsibility away from you and that is easy. And the result is, you find that it began to aggravate.
http://www.freefromthegrip.com/s%20kaung.html

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Dependency is an interesting issue. People want leaders. Just look at how uncomfortable people get in situations where there is no one to take charge.

Actually there was an article I saw about a week ago containing something that none other than Stephen Kaung spoke to a group of people who had come out of a cult. What he says is interesting and it ties into the dependency issue. Also notice how quickly parallels can be drawn from what is said to the legacy of Lee that Kaung would have been well aware of. I will just post part of it, the rest is at the link:

Stephen Kaung:
"And I think the deliverance begins with first not trying to be spiritual, but try to be human."

[TLFisher]

Now, somebody took authority and then the others began to submit to the authority and really desired for that authority and that authority became more authoritative, until finally you find that if any person, no matter how spiritual he is, if he should take the place of Christ, sooner or later wrong teaching will come out. You know, it can’t be avoided.

He will teach something that is extra-spiritual or scriptural and the result you find is: instead of real spiritual, it is a kind of pseudo-spiritual. He tried to maintain a form of spirituality: ‘Now, if you do certain things then you are spiritual.’ You strive for spirituality and yet it is a kind of pseudo-spirituality in two ways: one is, you become more and more legalistic; it is bound to be that way. You become more and more legalistic, you do certain things and you are “alright”.

The other is, you become less and less human, you cannot be a normal person any more. They take the abnormal, abnormal as spiritual, so if any one tries to be normal, you will be considered as “not spiritual”. That kind of feeling will be created. It is inevitable. Every cult or semi-cult are all that way and furthermore you will find that the teaching invariably will be: “This is the Lord’s best, the only place, if you leave it you’re finished” and that kind of thing is brainwashing.

After you have been brainwashed for a few years, whenever you leave that group, you are spiritually wrecked. I have met people completely wrecked. That guilty feeling is always there, because they fell, they have left God’s will, and now they are finished. I’ve met people like that, who began to see some things wrong and they come out of it and yet the effect upon them is so strong, they’ve never been able to shake it off and they are a misfit everywhere. They cannot fit in anywhere else, they just become a misfit. It’s very sad, it’s very, very sad. Some people came out and saw what is wrong and yet when you talk to them you can see that they are still bound. It’s very difficult.

You have to realize Stephen Kaung is speaking to Church of Bible Understanding. If you thought he was speaking about the local churches, if the shoe fits....

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Stephen Kaung:
"And I think the deliverance begins with first not trying to be spiritual, but try to be human."

Those are wise words. Hopefully those under Kaung live by those words. Given that Nee thought he was some spiritual guru, I think the whole idea of spirituality is dangerous for anyone following in Nee's footsteps. Just skim The Latent Power of the Soul. Nee certainly had some bizarre ideas.

Originally Posted by Terry

You have to realize Stephen Kaung is speaking to Church of Bible Understanding. If you thought he was speaking about the local churches, if the shoe fits....

The shoe fits, at least I think so. Lee surrounded himself with those who were generally much younger than he. So everyone naturally looked up to him, as their leader.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Those are wise words. Hopefully those under Kaung live by those words. Given that Nee thought he was some spiritual guru, I think the whole idea of spirituality is dangerous for anyone following in Nee's footsteps. Just skim The Latent Power of the Soul. Nee certainly had some bizarre ideas.

Kaung knew both sides of Nee, the spiritual side, or ministry side, and the randy side of Nee (Dr. Lily Hsu).

Nee knew the latent power of the soul because he used it.

Lee knew it too ... obviously.

And because spirituality operates in the unknown realm it is very dangerous. It can reek havoc on your life. I've seen it.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Kaung knew both sides of Nee, the spiritual side, or ministry side, and the randy side of Nee (Dr. Lily Hsu).

Nee knew the latent power of the soul because he used it.

Lee knew it too ... obviously.

And because spirituality operates in the unknown realm it is very dangerous. It can reek havoc on your life. I've seen it.

You've got that right. I've seen it happen too. More than once, I've seen LCers get into this mindset of trying to act to "spiritual" only to suffer some kind of breakdown, or realize that they don't know what they're getting into. When someone thinks they are especially "spiritual", they will inevitably start thinking they are invincible the unknown. And even the Bible warns against the dangers of pretension.

Acts 19:13-16
13 When some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

You've got that right. I've seen it happen too. More than once, I've seen LCers get into this mindset of trying to act to "spiritual" only to suffer some kind of breakdown, or realize that they don't know what they're getting into. When someone thinks they are especially "spiritual", they will inevitably start thinking they are invincible the unknown. And even the Bible warns against the dangers of pretension.

Pretension, that's acting spiritually. Really acting spiritual is just creating a mask for their soul.
In the local churches, so much emphasis on "being an overcomer" that brothers and sisters feel inadequate, at least I have for having an inability to remain in your spirit 24/7.
Having lived in a brothers house I have seen the "gnashing of teeth" from my brothers when they or others have just dedicated several hours of our evening watching a Mariners game.
In the meetings, the facade of being spiritual, is proclaiming a phrase in a loud voice. The fallen concept is if you're not being heard, you're not in spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The shoe fits, at least I think so. Lee surrounded himself with those who were generally much younger than he. So everyone naturally looked up to him, as their leader.

Interesting.

No one ever considered Nee, Lee, or Chu as a brother, a friend, or a companion. They must be your "spiritual father," or nothing. Then, when it comes to their failures and unrighteousness, one can always say, "the problems of my spiritual father are none of my business."

So convenient.