Church Ground Becomes the Lining Up with a Man and a Ministry

[Cal]

There are basically three kinds of ex-LCMers:

1) There are those that try to mostly discredit the experience, with the hopes that this will free them from the past.

2) There are those that believe the experience was mostly positive and good, and wish to return to it somehow.

3) There are those who see the experience as both positive and negative. They appreciate the positive, but recognize the negative. They may still be searching, but they do not live in the past.

1 and 2 are the extremes. 3 is the more reasonable view. Most people here are in 3, including Ohio. A minority are in 1, a few in 2.

My posts were directed at those in 2 who feel they need to fix the LCM and rejoin it in order to have the experience God wants for them. My feeling is that attitude is the trap of the devil. If you feel the LCM was the best manifestation of the church ever, then just start again and recreate it. You know the principles that caused it to work, and what's more you know the mistakes that caused it to fail. So just start again. What's holding you back? I mean, put up or shut up. But don't try to fix the remnants of that movement. And don't just spend your time telling everyone how great it was in a way of being a wet blanket on the present. Move on positively! Unless you are genuinely trying to help the people left there it is a waste of life, not to mention an insult to God, to try to fix it so you can have a good experience again. Put simply, that's just wrongheaded.

But I did not mean to imply you shouldn't talk about what you liked about the LCM experience. That's fine as long it doesn't carry the notion that some experience of God can or could only be had there, because that's nonsense, and a trap.

[Cal]

I think awareness's picture of the LCM as a cargo cult is apt. Their feeling is that if they get back to the proper appreciation of Nee and Lee, if they have the proper relationship with the ministry, if they are properly "on the ground" and "keeping the oneness" and meeting properly and having "morning watch", etc, etc, then the cargo of the Lord's blessing seen in the good old days will return. Hallelujah, Hallelujah!

If that's not a trap I don't know what is.

It's completely wrongheaded because there is nothing in it about following the Lord today. It's all about the past.

God is like a river. You can never step into the same one twice. In nature and purpose he is the same, but there is always something new about the way he works things out. LCMers and those ex-LCMers living for the good old days are indeed like a cargo cult, trying to do everything just right and then sitting on the beach staring at the horizon waiting for the cargo to come again, day after day after day after day....

The plane isn't coming. In the meantime God drove by on a jet ski waving for them to follow him, and they just ignored him.

[Indiana]

Titus Chu shares, in representing many brothers and sisters also, in his final letter to the blending brothers, 2 months before his quarantine:

Haven't You Brothers Ignored Brother Lee's "Will"?

...You make frequent reference to Brother Lee's "will." Surely Brother Lee's final public speaking constitutes an important part of his "will." In his final speaking at the Chinese New Year conference, 1997, Brother Lee said,

"We have much to learn concerning receiving people according to God and according to His Son. Because of our negligence in this matter in the past, we have offended the Body of Christ and many brothers and sisters in the Lord. For this reason, I had a deep repentance before the Lord. Brothers and sisters, I hope that we can see our past mistakes by getting into this message through pray-reading, studying, reciting and prophesying. Of course, sectarianism in the denominations is wrong; it is something very much condemned by God. Nevertheless, those who are genuinely saved in the denominations are children of God and have been received by God. Hence, we also should receive them, but we would never participate in the division in which they are." (W. Lee, The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Christ's Life, Chp. 6)

Brother Lee was ministering in Chinese. A more literal translation of his words, conveying his genuine repentance would be:

"Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God,…we co-workers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn….too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sects are what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children…can be free from such condemnation [against those in denominations]. Such an understanding and verification will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"

Brothers, aren't these words, uttered by Brother Lee in his final conference gathering prior to his departure, a most crucial statement? Aren't they also a serious challenge to us to reconsider our ways?

Dear brothers, Brother Lee's final public utterance expressed his deep regret ("painful repentance") to the Body of Christ and an apology for "past mistakes" to the brothers and sisters, both among us and in the denominations. Why haven't you honored Brother Lee's final speaking concerning receiving the believers? Why do you brothers always declare that you are one with Brother Lee, yet totally ignore what was his real concern and his final charge to us all? Did you brothers ever come together to study this matter and if so, what is the outcome? Rather than endeavoring to effect a change in attitude towards believers who don't gather with us, you have caused the recovery to become more exclusive. Rather than emphasize Brother Lee's "will" expressed publicly through his messages (including this one), you have emphasized selected private utterances of Brother Lee. Rather than correcting our "past mistakes" in receiving believers, you have changed the emphasis of Brother Lee's final speaking. Brother Benson Phillips is on record saying, "…from Brother Lee's final message. We must receive all the believers. But the burden here is that we might receive all the local churches and all the saints in the local churches. They must be received by us,…God has received us….Since God has received every local church, we must have fellowship, and we must receive one another into the fellowship of the Triune God. Then we must receive all believers." (The Ministry, vol. 9, no. 2, p. 108). Doesn't Brother Benson's speaking here deviate from Brother Lee's emphasis? Brother Lee talked about receiving the believers, apologizing to those in denominations. He made no reference to receiving local churches. Yet, you Brother Benson, inserted the idea of receiving all the local churches and all the saints in the churches. Moreover, you made receiving "all the local churches" and the saints therein priorities above receiving all the believers, saying, "the burden here is that we…receive all the local churches and all the saints in the local churches…,Then we must receive all believers." In this context Brother Lee didn't talk about receiving the local churches, yet you have introduced this "new teaching" which de-emphasizes and postpones the receiving of other believers. Let me ask: In this matter are you really faithful to Brother Lee's "will," or are you implementing your own agenda? Brother Benson, what do you mean by this extra-biblical teaching? Do you intend to imply that a local church needs to be received by you brothers, before it will be recognized by all the local churches under your leadership (control)? My bolds and color added)

Dear brothers, there are those (including myself) who wish to be faithful to Brother Lee's final speaking and seriously consider how to implement this aspect of his "will." How can we participate in your activities which deviate drastically from Brother Lee's ministry and deny or deemphasize the desire expressed in his final speaking?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There are basically three kinds of ex-LCMers:

1) There are those that try to mostly discredit the experience, with the hopes that this will free them from the past.

2) There are those that believe the experience was mostly positive and good, and wish to return to it somehow.

3) There are those who see the experience as both positive and negative. They appreciate the positive, but recognize the negative. They may still be searching, but they do not live in the past.

1 and 2 are the extremes. 3 is the more reasonable view. Most people here are in 3, including Ohio. A minority are in 1, a few in 2.

There are several others;
A. Ones who go on and pretend their LC experiences never happened.
B. Ones who go on, but regarding the past analyze to reach an understanding what happened.

[UntoHim]

I wrote this post this morning but had to run out before I actually got to put it on the forum. It's pretty stale at this point, but I'll try to add to it by reacting to some of the subsequent posts.

I think sometimes all three of the types Igzy has listed....all at the same time

Let's face it, the Local Church, and our experience of it, seem to lend themselves to exaggeration. We got used to exaggeration while we were in the movement (cf: We ARE THE Lord's Recovery! We ARE THE Church! Eating Jesus is THE WAY! Christianity is Christless! and the kicker...to say one negative thing about the Local Church or Witness Lee must mean you hate the LC or you hate Witness Lee.) Of course it's easy to look back and make these kind of criticisms, but to simply deny the attitudes we once held, and is still held by current LC members, is to rob our discussions of reality.

All human endeavors, even those which seek to please God, serve Christ and "build the Church", are subject to the limitations and weaknesses of the humans who initiate them and fight to keep them profitable and relevant. By profitable I mean something that is going to be profitable to God and his people, and by relevant I mean relevant to the world around us. There is absolutely no doubt that Witness Lee and his followers have sincerely sought to please God, serve Christ and build the Church. But the simple truth is that they have gone ahead and tried to accomplish these things without acknowledging their limitations and weaknesses, and as a matter of fact, they feel that if they do acknowledge their limitations and weaknesses, that would make them just like all the other Christians throughout history, and to Witness Lee and his followers that would be the biggest sin of all.

Even if it has been many years, some of us feel uncomfortable speaking of these human weaknesses...we are all conscience that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", and this indeed is the crux of the matter - are we truly seeking the glory of God? Is this our goal in being so harshly critical of Witness Lee and the LC movement, to seek the glory of God? Is this our goal in being so overly defensive, even to the point of making it personal, to seek the glory of God? I think we are falling woefully short on this thread so far. At least I know I am.

Lets try to elevate the conversation, shall we?

Originally Posted by Terry

There are several others;
A. Ones who go on and pretend their LC experiences never happened.
B. Ones who go on, but regarding the past analyze to reach an understanding what happened.

Terry, without trying to put words in your mouth, don't you mean to say "Ones who go on and pretend their (Positive) LC experiences never happened"? If so I don't blame you for thinking this about brothers like Igzy and me. We tend to emphasize the negative. But this does not mean we have a negative attitude or view towards our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church. We want the same things for them that we want for every believer - to know the true and living God of the Universe, His Son Jesus Christ and to be lead into all Truth by the Spirit of Truth. We don't think this is happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Some are convinced that at one time this was indeed taking place in the LC. I have serious doubts about this. This is NOT, repeat NOT, to say that we did have some genuine experiences of Christ, but I do not believe that the overall atmosphere in the LC was conducive to knowing God in the way the Bible describes.

As far as "to reach an understanding what happened"...well that's pretty much what this forum is all about!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Terry, without trying to put words in your mouth, don't you mean to say "Ones who go on and pretend their (Positive) LC experiences never happened"?

UntoHim, I was referring to churchkids I was acquainted with in Southern California localities I was raised in and subsequently crossed paths with as adults.
Whether their experiences were positive or negative, I don't know.

[Indiana]

If we are for God’s government on the earth, we will let Christ be preeminent in our lives, and have the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, self-control…against such things there is no law. In the same book of Galatians the works of the flesh are mentioned, including the making of divisions and the creating of sects. Sowing to the flesh in this way reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps life.

Are those truly under God’s government who insist on capitulation to their authority, or are they stirred and steered by the flesh to gain control. Control is what men of the flesh want. Control is what the blending brothers have obtained.


http://www.twoturmoils.com/HowtoBeco...vidShields.pdf

[Cal]

Whatever the experience in the LCM was, it's in the past. God doesn't live in the past. Now, this doesn't mean we can't discuss what happened to try to understand it, but it does mean two things which may at first seem contradictory, but actually are not:

1) The first thing it means is that the experiences can never be fully replicated. That was then, this is now. The attempt to reproduce Elden Hall or the like is a quixotic project. You might was well be trying to bring back the age of Frank Sinatra and big band music. We shouldn't try anyway, as with God now is always better than then. If you don't realize that you are definitely living in the past.

2) While completely reproducing those days is not possible, applying valid principles learned from those days should produce something like it. That is, it is not necessary to reform the Recovery to have those general experiences again. The "church life," at least the parts of it God would approve of, should be reproducible by any group of seekers who believe they should take that path. Actually, groups similar in some way exist all over. The path to God's best never requires going through a particular organization or set of people.


There were many things about the LCM which at first blush seemed to be a genuine experiences of God, but were very possibly simply experiences of human emotion in a group setting. Those experiences of "being home" of "being in God's present move" of "being at the center of the action" and all the thrill and excitement of that were very possibly just the emotional reaction to being in such an enthusiastic, dynamic and confident environment. The attitude of "us against everyone" is an emotion which classically energizes and galvanizes human beings into a feeling of unique purpose, whether that purpose is genuine or not, and such emotions can be easily mistaken for God's approval.

That said, there were in fact some things in the LCM that many, many Christians are still weak on. I would say three of these are:
1) a grand, unified vision of God's purpose.
2) a deep appreciation of the availability and power of Christ in personal life.
3) a deep appreciation of the corporate aspect of God's people.

(Note I said nothing about mingling, becoming God, spiritual authority, blending, or any of the other specific or esoteric aspects of the LCM. Those were definitely NOT strengths. The LCM got some (not all) big themes right, they got many details wrong.)

The LCM's deep appreciation of "the Church" was a very good thing. However, their mistake was to apply that wonderful Church status only to themselves. No, we are all the Church, whether we meet here or there, as long as we meet in spirit and truth. The LCM was right to celebrate the Church. They were wrong to make it a private party.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

2) While completely reproducing those days is not possible, applying valid principles learned from those days should produce something like it . . . . The "church life," at least the parts of it God would approve of, should be reproducible by any group of seekers who believe they should take that path. Actually, groups similar in some way exist all over.

The question I always have is whether producing "something like it" is really important. (And I note that Igzy didn't say it is.) Even if we are seeking something that is not a product of Lee's folly, do we think that reproducing the "good" parts is important?

Another way of saying this would be to ask whether there are not a myriad of alternate "experiences" that are just as valid, though very different in outward appearance, ranging from quiet, sober reflection all the way to some charismatic forms. Is a preponderance of any of these rather than others anything other than preference? Or is any of this evidence of some special status before God?

This is where I start to sense a need on the part of some to keep reproducing particular experiences because that is what they think was God's real, up-to-date move when in fact if God is moving at all, it is always real and it is always up to date. It is only us that gets fake and/or old.

God moves in people who jump and shout and in people who are quiet and pray. He moves in those who ad lib every prayer and in those who read prayers. He moves in those who have no absolute order of service and in those who follow a set liturgy.

The problem I find is not in any of these ways, but rather those who think that doing it a certain way will bring God to them. Whether it is a liturgy, or sufficient jumping and shouting. Once we think we have figured out the formula to it all, then we are probably just getting what we put into it and little more.