The Unfolding War Against Spiritual Abuse

[TLFisher]

One may expect the reaction to addressing spiritual abuse something along the lines, "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church. If the Lord doesn't see it, then I also will choose to not see iniquity."

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

One may expect the reaction to addressing spiritual abuse something along the lines, "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church. If the Lord doesn't see it, then I also will choose to not see iniquity."

Terry, did one of the BBs say this or maybe an elder? I'm sorry, but this is the most foolish, false and deceiving statement I think I have heard. It could only be said by someone who does not know the bible or someone who chooses to follow the teachings of a man rather than the bible. The statement's author must have been a confirmed Leeite. From the major prophets especially Jeremiah and Lamentations there is evidence that the LORD saw the sin, stiff neck and treachery of Israel. From John's Revelation we know the Lord saw the sin and backsliding of the church, and Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit speaks about some of the iniquity of the church.

Why would anyone keep themselves under subjection to false teachers who say this kind of thing?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Terry, did one of the BBs say this or maybe an elder? I'm sorry, but this is the most foolish, false and deceiving statement I think I have heard. It could only be said by someone who does not know the bible or someone who chooses to follow the teachings of a man rather than the bible. The statement's author must have been a confirmed Leeite. From the major prophets especially Jeremiah and Lamentations there is evidence that the LORD saw the sin, stiff neck and treachery of Israel. From John's Revelation we know the Lord saw the sin and backsliding of the church, and Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit speaks about some of the iniquity of the church.

Why would anyone keep themselves under subjection to false teachers who say this kind of thing?

A brother who my wife and I once rented from. Not an elder or a BB, but perhaps a brother who just wants to go on positively and not become "inwardly disturbed". Meaning not wanting his conscience bothered by Local Church history.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

One may expect the reaction to addressing spiritual abuse something along the lines, "From the Lord's view, he doesn't see any iniquity in Israel or the church. If the Lord doesn't see it, then I also will choose to not see iniquity."

Really? What verse is this?

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

Really? What verse is this?

Nell

Appears Nell, the basis is Numbers 23:21. Let's explore other passages on iniquity.

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Micah 2:1
Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At morning's light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it.

Question, does Numbers 23:21 excuse and pardon spiritual abuse?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

Appears Nell, the basis is Numbers 23:21. Let's explore other passages on iniquity.

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Micah 2:1
Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At morning's light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it.

Question, does Numbers 23:21 excuse and pardon spiritual abuse?

No.

Further, the New Testament trumps the Old (since we are living in the NT age), especially in matters of sin. Spiritual abuse is sin.

Numbers 23:21 is another description of an event that took place in the Old Testament times. It is not a prescription for behavior to live by especially since God gave his Son to die for the sins of fallen, sinful man.

It's a pretty ridiculous statement IMHO.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

No.

Further, the New Testament trumps the Old (since we are living in the NT age), especially in matters of sin. Spiritual abuse is sin.

Numbers 23:21 is another description of an event that took place in the Old Testament times. It is not a prescription for behavior to live by especially since God gave his Son to die for the sins of fallen, sinful man.

It's a pretty ridiculous statement IMHO.

Nell

To use Numbers 23:21 (“He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen wickedness in Israel. The Lord his God is with him, And the shout of a King is among them.) as an excuse to not confront unrighteousness is a copout.
The verse I quoted in Isaiah 53:6 I see as foretelling Jesus dying on the cross for our iniquities. To claim Numbers 23:21 as an excuse regarding iniquity indicates denying the significance of Jesus' death on the cross. Completely contrary to the New Testament ministry.

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

To use Numbers 23:21 (“He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen wickedness in Israel. The Lord his God is with him, And the shout of a King is among them.) as an excuse to not confront unrighteousness is a copout.
The verse I quoted in Isaiah 53:6 I see as foretelling Jesus dying on the cross for our iniquities. To claim Numbers 23:21 as an excuse regarding iniquity indicates denying the significance of Jesus' death on the cross. Completely contrary to the New Testament ministry.

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17

I agree with you, Terry. People who make statements like this one seem to believe that the simple act of words coming out of your mouth in whatever order you choose, make a statement true. For example, standing under a clear blue sky and stating "the sky is orange", and expecting the hearers to believe that the sky is orange.

Politicians come to mind...stating the obsurd while ignoring the obvious.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

To use Numbers 23:21 (“He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen wickedness in Israel. The Lord his God is with him, And the shout of a King is among them.) as an excuse to not confront unrighteousness is a copout.

A contradicting word to any brother quoting Numbers 23:21 is Ephesians 5:11

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

A contradicting word to any brother quoting Numbers 23:21 is Ephesians 5:11

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

The difference here is that the first is corporate and the latter is individual. Balak paid Balaam to curse Israel, which was obviously special to God's heart. So God said He saw no iniquity in Israel. This has nothing to do with exposing the deeds of darkness even of individuals within the church.

Ironically what Lee did repeatedly to categorically condemn all of Christianity was very similar to what Balaam was paid to do. Lee condemned the body of Christ as a whole, outside of his little movement, as pitiful, hopeless and helpless. This is altogether different from exposing specific deeds of darkness, which is what John Ingalls et. al. did to expose the corruption at the offices of LSM.