My Experience in the Local Churches

Indiana · 09-26-2015, 12:39 PM

The Claim that the two Fermentations Merged

Brother Lee continues, showing his belief that “the fermentation in Hong Kong had spread to Europe, specifically to John So in Stuttgart, Germany”. He says,

At the same time that Joseph Fung was working in Hong Kong and John So was working in Europe, the two began to have contacts with various saints in the United States in 1987. Joseph Fung made trips to the West Coast of the U. S. A. and contacted disgruntled or innocent saints here and there….On the other hand, John So began to have contact with some saints in the Southeast of the U. S. A. and to exert a negative influence upon them”. At one time he spoke with a brother from four to six hours over the telephone, expressing to him the matters he was bothered with. He also began to communicate with John Ingalls and others in Southern California through the telephone. By all this it is evident that the fermentation that was taking place in Hong Kong and Europe began to work in the United States (p. 42, FPR).

After speaking in this way, Brother Lee alludes to his assumption that a “conspiracy” must have been taking place, saying, “During that entire period of time they kept these communications from me. I did not know then that they were working actively behind my back”. In relation to his assumption, Brother Lee once shared with the elders: “It is when we are impure that we become suspicious. We become detectives to spy out the meaning behind what others say. If we are pure in our motive, we do not have such a thought. We are on another globe, taking others’ words in a simple way.” - W. Lee (Practical Talks to the Elders, pp. 26-28, 1982)

On the claim “the fermentation in Hong Kong had spread to Europe, specifically to John So in Stuttgart, Germany”, we have to ask, how was this so? No information is given by Brother Lee to substantiate his claim. He simply makes an assertion, it seems, based on suspicion and imagination and begins to build his conspiracy theory, without proof.

Of course, whatever Brother Lee would say, people receive as the truth, regardless, as if he was all-knowing. What may not be the truth becomes “truth” to people simply because he spoke it. Albeit, whatever he spoke and people believed, his conspiracy theory began without proof and without a solid foundation to build upon.

On the claim “John So began to have contact with some saints in the Southeast of the U. S. A. and to exert a negative influence upon them”, what was the negative influence? According to whose evaluation did John exert a negative influence upon the saints?

Brother Lee gives no details about this and leaves no impression that he knew the saints personally and what they could testify of John’s visit and influence.

He also gave the reader no hint about what was going on in the recovery to bestir two long-time co-workers to rise up and come to the U. S. to minister to others. Such information is kept from the reader. Neither did Brother Lee give any word in his book to establish that John and Joseph worked together, or prove that they were somehow conspiring or had any other motive in coming to the United States than to care for the saints and the recovery, according to the Lord’s leading and the burden they had in their heart. Why would Brother Lee act suspicious?

The Claim that Brothers Were Involved in a Conspiracy

John Ingalls – “It is not our desire, nor has it ever been, to overthrow anyone’s work or ministry, neither have we desired to put anyone’s ministry aside, but rather to bring everything to the light and put everything in the proper context. A report has been circulated that we would not be satisfied until we brought a certain person down; this report was erroneously applied to us. We never had any such intention, nor have we ever conspired against anyone – the Lord knows this and can testify for us. The accusation of conspiracy made against us is an utter falsehood – our testimony as recorded in this account bears this out. Rather we have grieved over those in leadership who have swerved from the path they once proclaimed and espoused. We desperately hoped there would be some change to resolve the serious problems that had emerged, and we fellowshipped earnestly with Brother Lee to this end. We have lamented the damage inflicted and suffered by many saints through practices and attitudes that we too in some measure participated in… For my part, I humbly repent of this”. (Speaking the Truth In Love conclusion, 1990)

Al Knoch – “Anyone who knows John Ingalls knows that he is not ambitious; he is not that way. Who would want that responsibility [of taking over the recovery], there was no conspiracy” (from an interview with Al (Nov 2000).

John So – In his Manila presentation, John So expressed surprise at the conspiracy charge:

I would like to just go through Brother Lee’s outline concerning the rebellion. It says the rebellion began to ferment from Stuttgart in 1986. What I would like to do is just give you the chronological events of what took place. I will only deal briefly with things that I personally know quite well, concerning myself, Stuttgart, and Europe. I don’t know and I am not thoroughly familiar with what went on in Hong Kong. I really do not know and I cannot say anything in details. So, I cannot speak for brother Joseph Fung. And I didn’t know exactly what happened in Anaheim in the very beginning. So I cannot speak for brother John Ingalls. I really cannot. And when things happened in Rosemead, I really had no idea what was going on there until I read the literature that they had put out. I did not even know that we had ever formed together an “international conspiracy ring” until Witness Lee said so. I am quite surprised. None of the places I’ve mentioned involved me. Okay, Witness Lee claims that rebellion and conspiracy started to ferment in Stuttgart in 1986. I’m going to start at this point…. (1990, John So’s testimony given in Manila by their invitation)

John Ingalls – On page 117, John Ingalls speaks of having the same “heart’s burden” as others.
Brother Lee mentioned then that Bill Mallon, John So, and myself all used the same term – central control. He deduced that we must have consulted or “conspired” together. The fact was that we all had the same realization because of separate similar experiences without any consultation and certainly without any “conspiring“ with each other. John So began to be concerned in 1986, Bill Mallon in the spring of 1987, and myself in the fall of 1987. Eventually, as we had done for years, we had telephone contact with each other, and our heart’s burden came out.

John Ingalls – On page 103, John shares the following refutation of the conspiracy charge:

At this point we felt that it would be useful for the brothers we had contacted to come together to fellowship and pray in preparation for going to see Brother Lee, so that we would be clear concerning the issues we would present to him. Moreover, we believed it would be best not to create any stir among the saints or other elders by doing this openly; so we sought some place where we could all meet privately. This was by no means a conspiracy, as we are being charged. At no time did we ever meet with the purpose of plotting to overthrow Brother Lee and his ministry. That is utterly ridiculous. We never had such a thought – the Lord can testify for us. A private meeting or a secret meeting does not constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy takes form from the content of the meeting. Is it a conspiracy to pray and fellowship together in preparation for visiting Brother Lee and opening our hearts in frank fellowship? Of course not. We were very concerned for the saints and sought for an extended period to cover the grave matters from them lest they be distraught and we suffer worse consequences.
One of the brothers I sought to contact and confer with was Ray Graver, an elder in the church in Irving, Texas, and the manager of the LSM branch office there. I called him in Texas and proposed that I come to see him in Irving. It was thought, however, for us to meet in Irving would attract too much attention; so we settled on meeting midway in El Paso, Texas. This decision is being censured now as a plan for a secret meeting, as if that in itself is evil and a conspiracy. But I fail to see anything wrong with this. It was with a pure motive and desire and certainly was not a plot to draw him into a conspiracy to overthrow anyone’s ministry. Ray was quite willing to do this until Benson Phillips, another co-worker and elder in Irving, Texas, who was then in Taiwan, advised him against it. Had Benson been in Irving, I would have sought to speak with him also. I enjoyed a very good and close relationship with both Ray and Benson for many years.

John So - On page 93, John So speaks straightforwardly to Brother Lee:

Originally, I did plan to go to Anaheim to have some personal fellowship with you [Witness Lee] as you requested by phone early December. (I must say at this time I was not too polite any more. If you would consider that as maybe a rebellion, that’s fine with me. Consider it as a rebellion. Conspiracy, that is also fine with me. ) In my last page, I told him, please do not think that I’m against you or am opposing you because of my writing you this letter. I do not have the slightest intention to oppose your work or your ministry. Neither do I have any desire to convince any brother. By the Lord’s grace, I like to be straightforward and follow my conscience, not to hide anything and not play politics, not to please anyone, or to offend anyone. May the Lord have mercy on all His churches. (I ended the letter that way.)

Bill Mallon - Bill Mallon was very concerned over serious developments in the Southeast churches and of course he opened to other brothers about his concerns, but he spurns the idea that there was ever a conspiracy to overthrow someone. He said this “would be funny if it were not so tragic” to be charged in this way. The brothers simply came together to discuss their serious concerns and desired to bring those concerns into fellowship with other brothers, including Brother Lee. John Ingalls approached Brother Lee sixteen times on behalf of the feeling of many brothers and the burden that many of them had at that time. Ken Unger went to Brother Lee twenty times. After a considerable amount of time had passed with little progress being made, certain brothers began to speak out according to their convictions, based on the Word of God, prior church ministry, and their conscience. This, however, was interpreted by some as speaking differently, and negatively, and being against the new way in the churches.

09-26-2015, 12:39 PM	#22
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 718	Re: Claim that Brothers were in a Conspiracy The Claim that the two Fermentations Merged Brother Lee continues, showing his belief that “the fermentation in Hong Kong had spread to Europe, specifically to John So in Stuttgart, Germany”. He says, At the same time that Joseph Fung was working in Hong Kong and John So was working in Europe, the two began to have contacts with various saints in the United States in 1987. Joseph Fung made trips to the West Coast of the U. S. A. and contacted disgruntled or innocent saints here and there….On the other hand, John So began to have contact with some saints in the Southeast of the U. S. A. and to exert a negative influence upon them”. At one time he spoke with a brother from four to six hours over the telephone, expressing to him the matters he was bothered with. He also began to communicate with John Ingalls and others in Southern California through the telephone. By all this it is evident that the fermentation that was taking place in Hong Kong and Europe began to work in the United States (p. 42, FPR). After speaking in this way, Brother Lee alludes to his assumption that a “conspiracy” must have been taking place, saying, “During that entire period of time they kept these communications from me. I did not know then that they were working actively behind my back”. In relation to his assumption, Brother Lee once shared with the elders: “It is when we are impure that we become suspicious. We become detectives to spy out the meaning behind what others say. If we are pure in our motive, we do not have such a thought. We are on another globe, taking others’ words in a simple way.” - W. Lee (Practical Talks to the Elders, pp. 26-28, 1982) On the claim “the fermentation in Hong Kong had spread to Europe, specifically to John So in Stuttgart, Germany”, we have to ask, how was this so? No information is given by Brother Lee to substantiate his claim. He simply makes an assertion, it seems, based on suspicion and imagination and begins to build his conspiracy theory, without proof. Of course, whatever Brother Lee would say, people receive as the truth, regardless, as if he was all-knowing. What may not be the truth becomes “truth” to people simply because he spoke it. Albeit, whatever he spoke and people believed, his conspiracy theory began without proof and without a solid foundation to build upon. On the claim “John So began to have contact with some saints in the Southeast of the U. S. A. and to exert a negative influence upon them”, what was the negative influence? According to whose evaluation did John exert a negative influence upon the saints? Brother Lee gives no details about this and leaves no impression that he knew the saints personally and what they could testify of John’s visit and influence. He also gave the reader no hint about what was going on in the recovery to bestir two long-time co-workers to rise up and come to the U. S. to minister to others. Such information is kept from the reader. Neither did Brother Lee give any word in his book to establish that John and Joseph worked together, or prove that they were somehow conspiring or had any other motive in coming to the United States than to care for the saints and the recovery, according to the Lord’s leading and the burden they had in their heart. Why would Brother Lee act suspicious? The Claim that Brothers Were Involved in a Conspiracy John Ingalls – “It is not our desire, nor has it ever been, to overthrow anyone’s work or ministry, neither have we desired to put anyone’s ministry aside, but rather to bring everything to the light and put everything in the proper context. A report has been circulated that we would not be satisfied until we brought a certain person down; this report was erroneously applied to us. We never had any such intention, nor have we ever conspired against anyone – the Lord knows this and can testify for us. The accusation of conspiracy made against us is an utter falsehood – our testimony as recorded in this account bears this out. Rather we have grieved over those in leadership who have swerved from the path they once proclaimed and espoused. We desperately hoped there would be some change to resolve the serious problems that had emerged, and we fellowshipped earnestly with Brother Lee to this end. We have lamented the damage inflicted and suffered by many saints through practices and attitudes that we too in some measure participated in… For my part, I humbly repent of this”. (Speaking the Truth In Love conclusion, 1990) Al Knoch – “Anyone who knows John Ingalls knows that he is not ambitious; he is not that way. Who would want that responsibility [of taking over the recovery], there was no conspiracy” (from an interview with Al (Nov 2000). John So – In his Manila presentation, John So expressed surprise at the conspiracy charge: I would like to just go through Brother Lee’s outline concerning the rebellion. It says the rebellion began to ferment from Stuttgart in 1986. What I would like to do is just give you the chronological events of what took place. I will only deal briefly with things that I personally know quite well, concerning myself, Stuttgart, and Europe. I don’t know and I am not thoroughly familiar with what went on in Hong Kong. I really do not know and I cannot say anything in details. So, I cannot speak for brother Joseph Fung. And I didn’t know exactly what happened in Anaheim in the very beginning. So I cannot speak for brother John Ingalls. I really cannot. And when things happened in Rosemead, I really had no idea what was going on there until I read the literature that they had put out. I did not even know that we had ever formed together an “international conspiracy ring” until Witness Lee said so. I am quite surprised. None of the places I’ve mentioned involved me. Okay, Witness Lee claims that rebellion and conspiracy started to ferment in Stuttgart in 1986. I’m going to start at this point…. (1990, John So’s testimony given in Manila by their invitation) John Ingalls – On page 117, John Ingalls speaks of having the same “heart’s burden” as others. Brother Lee mentioned then that Bill Mallon, John So, and myself all used the same term – central control. He deduced that we must have consulted or “conspired” together. The fact was that we all had the same realization because of separate similar experiences without any consultation and certainly without any “conspiring“ with each other. John So began to be concerned in 1986, Bill Mallon in the spring of 1987, and myself in the fall of 1987. Eventually, as we had done for years, we had telephone contact with each other, and our heart’s burden came out. John Ingalls – On page 103, John shares the following refutation of the conspiracy charge: At this point we felt that it would be useful for the brothers we had contacted to come together to fellowship and pray in preparation for going to see Brother Lee, so that we would be clear concerning the issues we would present to him. Moreover, we believed it would be best not to create any stir among the saints or other elders by doing this openly; so we sought some place where we could all meet privately. This was by no means a conspiracy, as we are being charged. At no time did we ever meet with the purpose of plotting to overthrow Brother Lee and his ministry. That is utterly ridiculous. We never had such a thought – the Lord can testify for us. A private meeting or a secret meeting does not constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy takes form from the content of the meeting. Is it a conspiracy to pray and fellowship together in preparation for visiting Brother Lee and opening our hearts in frank fellowship? Of course not. We were very concerned for the saints and sought for an extended period to cover the grave matters from them lest they be distraught and we suffer worse consequences. One of the brothers I sought to contact and confer with was Ray Graver, an elder in the church in Irving, Texas, and the manager of the LSM branch office there. I called him in Texas and proposed that I come to see him in Irving. It was thought, however, for us to meet in Irving would attract too much attention; so we settled on meeting midway in El Paso, Texas. This decision is being censured now as a plan for a secret meeting, as if that in itself is evil and a conspiracy. But I fail to see anything wrong with this. It was with a pure motive and desire and certainly was not a plot to draw him into a conspiracy to overthrow anyone’s ministry. Ray was quite willing to do this until Benson Phillips, another co-worker and elder in Irving, Texas, who was then in Taiwan, advised him against it. Had Benson been in Irving, I would have sought to speak with him also. I enjoyed a very good and close relationship with both Ray and Benson for many years. John So - On page 93, John So speaks straightforwardly to Brother Lee: Originally, I did plan to go to Anaheim to have some personal fellowship with you [Witness Lee] as you requested by phone early December. (I must say at this time I was not too polite any more. If you would consider that as maybe a rebellion, that’s fine with me. Consider it as a rebellion. Conspiracy, that is also fine with me. ) In my last page, I told him, please do not think that I’m against you or am opposing you because of my writing you this letter. I do not have the slightest intention to oppose your work or your ministry. Neither do I have any desire to convince any brother. By the Lord’s grace, I like to be straightforward and follow my conscience, not to hide anything and not play politics, not to please anyone, or to offend anyone. May the Lord have mercy on all His churches. (I ended the letter that way.) Bill Mallon - Bill Mallon was very concerned over serious developments in the Southeast churches and of course he opened to other brothers about his concerns, but he spurns the idea that there was ever a conspiracy to overthrow someone. He said this “would be funny if it were not so tragic” to be charged in this way. The brothers simply came together to discuss their serious concerns and desired to bring those concerns into fellowship with other brothers, including Brother Lee. John Ingalls approached Brother Lee sixteen times on behalf of the feeling of many brothers and the burden that many of them had at that time. Ken Unger went to Brother Lee twenty times. After a considerable amount of time had passed with little progress being made, certain brothers began to speak out according to their convictions, based on the Word of God, prior church ministry, and their conscience. This, however, was interpreted by some as speaking differently, and negatively, and being against the new way in the churches.