Double Standards

[Unsure]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's interesting how Lee's family amounted to nothing in terms of appreciation of his ministry. We are told Lee was the minister of the age, yet his family members couldn't sit through his messages?!? Surprise, surprise.

It is understandable then why his family is shrouded in mystery. It's not something they want members to know too much about.

Up until I came onto this board, I didn't even know Witness Lee had a family. Then again, I never thought to ask...

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Unsure

Up until I came onto this board, I didn't even know Witness Lee had a family. Then again, I never thought to ask...

Witness Lees youngest daughter, Mrs Lim, wife of Albert Lim, was solidly in the church in 1985. She went to the first FTT and I hardly heard of her later. She was in the church in Irving with all the appearances of a sound Christian woman. One of BP's girls was named after her. I think there might have been one other daughter in Elden Hall but not certain of this. I have a friend who was in Elden giving this info. Sure enough Phillip never was in meetings and there was real question about his salvation experience. Above I should have mentioned I met with Lee's daughter and Albert Lim for several years in Irving, TX. Since the Chineese met separately, I didn't see her that much. Albert was a very good translator. I thought he became a near BB. just an observation
Lisbon

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Witness Lees youngest daughter, Mrs Lim, wife of Albert Lim, was solidly in the church in 1985. She went to the first FTT and I hardly heard of her later. She was in the church in Irving with all the appearances of a sound Christian woman. One of BP's girls was named after her. I think there might have been one other daughter in Elden Hall but not certain of this. I have a friend who was in Elden giving this info. Sure enough Phillip never was in meetings and there was real question about his salvation experience. Above I should have mentioned I met with Lee's daughter and Albert Lim for several years in Irving, TX. Since the Chineese met separately, I didn't see her that much. Albert was a very good translator. I thought he became a near BB. just an observation
Lisbon

It would seem Witness Lee was exempt from 1 Tim 3:4-5. His family was a huge shortcoming. I do realize that he had no way of controlling his adult children, but he really should have kept them far away from his ministry, not give them jobs and allow so many LCers to experience things like the temper of Philip.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It would seem Witness Lee was exempt from 1 Tim 3:4-5. His family was a huge shortcoming. I do realize that he had no way of controlling his adult children, but he really should have kept them far away from his ministry, not give them jobs and allow so many LCers to experience things like the temper of Philip.

Anyone can have "challenging" kids, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and even Witness Lee's purported O.T. example of the "acting god" -- Samuel. In fact, if you read his story, the reason Israel cried out for a King was due in part because of his bad kids. Parenting is never easy, and we should pray for one another's families.

God, however, judged old Eli because he allowed his kids to damage God's people and God's house. Lee did the same. The parallels are uncanny. Read the story surrounding Hannah while remembering all of Lee and Sons' failed businesses fleecing the church.

Where Witness Lee took things a step further was his treatment of internal whistleblowers. All of those LC leaders who dared to speak their conscience on behalf of God's people were libeled and slandered. For a ministry which had spent a lifetime litigating outsiders, they surely knew what they were doing. They based their actions on the fact that all other Christians would obey I Corinthians chapter 6, but them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It would seem Witness Lee was exempt from 1 Tim 3:4-5. His family was a huge shortcoming...

WL was exempt because it was in the interests of furthering the cause to ignore that verse. One thing I realized, over time, is that LC doctrine has strong focus on verses that advance the LC cause, and ignores, downplays, or even rejects verses that are not useful. Whole sections of the Bible which don't match LC dogma are called "natural", "fallen", "soulish", or "men's concepts".

Originally Posted by Freedom

That's the difference between Nee and Lee. It seems Nee had a strong affinity for working with women...

WN was trained by women, and had female co-workers, and counted them as spiritual forebears (e.g. Penn-Lewis, Guyon, McDonough). But once WL got the reins, suddenly 1 Tim 3:12 was "recovered"... How well do you think a McDonough or Penn-Lewis would do in the LC today? They wouldn't survive a month. I remember RK saying sarcastically that he didn't know which was worse, a rebellious brother or a spiritual sister. What would he do if a Madam Jean Guyon suddenly popped up in one of his beloved localities? He'd have a coronary event.

In each case, The Cause triumphs: it doesn't matter that there is inconsistency between WN and WL, or even "early Lee" vs. "later Lee". It doesn't matter that the Bible is gripped with trembling hands and proclaimed hoarsely one minute, and summarily dismissed the next. What matters is The Cause. Sail on!

....

WL recounted that Japanese occupiers in China during WWII would kill a person just like killing a chicken. But something similar could be said about the Chinese, today: people are killed there for their body parts - they're worth more as kidney and liver donors than as living humans. It's a culture that can't evaluate individual worth outside the contribution to the Party/State/People. The Collective rules both the individual consciousnesses and the shared value system.

This isn't inferior to the Western thought-world, in which the Whole is built out of individual, atomistic Parts. Both have advantages, and weaknesses. But it's worth noting here that the oriental 'holistic' view may involve dismissal of Parts which don't fit the purported Whole, which in the LC not only means suppressing individuals, classes (women), and passages of scripture that aren't useful to the Cause at present. When you see the source of these thoughts, teachings, and behaviors, there's really no contradiction at all. There's no double standard, rather there's only one standard: the cause. Call it whatever you want: The ministry of the age, or the vision of the age, or the building up of the body, or the church of Christ's deep longing, or the central lane of the divine economy. Whatever label you want. Even the turmoils and storms, in this light, are seen as purifying fires. Too bad that so many got wiped out, but that's an unfortunate aspect of advancing the cause. As RK put it, sometimes you have to cut off the LCs to save the Body.... sail on!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

WN was trained by women, and had female co-workers, and counted them as spiritual forebears (e.g. Penn-Lewis, Guyon, McDonough). But once WL got the reins, suddenly 1 Tim 3:12 was "recovered"... How well do you think a McDonough or Penn-Lewis would do in the LC today? They wouldn't survive a month. I remember RK saying sarcastically that he didn't know which was worse, a rebellious brother or a spiritual sister. What would he do if a Madam Jean Guyon suddenly popped up in one of his beloved localities? He'd have a coronary event.

What I think it all boils down to is that for Nee, women helped promote The Cause. For Lee, they didn't and were thus subsequently excluded from major roles. Nee liked the writings of J. Penn-Lewis, and what better claim to fame that to be the one to piece together the subjective and esoteric "inner-life" puzzle? Additionally, Nee had bragging rights because of his ability to submit to a woman (M.E. Barber) and to handle her rebuking. In early 1900's Chinese culture, submission to a woman was probably quite intriguing. As for Nee's female coworkers, I won't even go there. Of course, when Lee came along, he simply claimed to be standing on Nee's shoulders, so women were of no use to him.

From my own LC experience, I can say that the older sisters who I have respected have always been the counterweights to the leaders who are so quick to go along with the latest program. I know some sisters who can see through all this, and I suppose what stops them from speaking up is wanting to submit to their husbands. Obviously, those who are not oblivious to the games at play are a danger to The Cause. WL was aware of this, so it was only a matter of finding a way to suppress the possibility of any threat to his position.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

WL recounted that Japanese occupiers in China during WWII would kill a person just like killing a chicken. But something similar could be said about the Chinese, today: people are killed there for their body parts - they're worth more as kidney and liver donors than as living humans. It's a culture that can't evaluate individual worth outside the contribution to the Party/State/People. The Collective rules both the individual consciousnesses and the shared value system.

This isn't inferior to the Western thought-world, in which the Whole is built out of individual, atomistic Parts. Both have advantages, and weaknesses. But it's worth noting here that the oriental 'holistic' view may involve dismissal of Parts which don't fit the purported Whole, which in the LC not only means suppressing individuals, classes (women), and passages of scripture that aren't useful to the Cause at present. When you see the source of these thoughts, teachings, and behaviors, there's really no contradiction at all. There's no double standard, rather there's only one standard: the cause. Call it whatever you want: The ministry of the age, or the vision of the age, or the building up of the body, or the church of Christ's deep longing, or the central lane of the divine economy. Whatever label you want. Even the turmoils and storms, in this light, are seen as purifying fires. Too bad that so many got wiped out, but that's an unfortunate aspect of advancing the cause. As RK put it, sometimes you have to cut off the LCs to save the Body.... sail on!

In the LC, everything said and done must serve and promote The Cause. Members are only useful inasmuch as they can support The Cause. That's why individuality is so highly frowned upon. That's why all those who have the ability to think for themselves have long since left.

What I have come to realize is that much of what is taught in the LC represents a dangerous mindset. I know that's old news, but it really can't be emphasized enough, and I will repeat that here on this forum until the day LCers begin to snap out of it.

At a certain point in time, I began to notice that much of the LC ministry material, especially the HWMR booklets serve to promote a particular style of thinking. It's hard to explain but revolves around certain themes such as: "we are nothing", "our opinions don't count", "we shouldn't act independently", "our natural abilities mean nothing", etc, etc. The underlying message is twofold, #1 is don't dare be independent and #2 don't dare assert yourself. The main problem with this is it leaves the door wide open for leaders to come in and start controlling. They have free reign to do whatever they want. I don't think that leaders necessarily always abuse their authority, but without a doubt, that has and continues to happen within the LC. Just as importantly, the mindset closes the door to reasonably address any concerns when they arise.

The mindset that serves to support The Cause is a self-reinforcing type of thinking. Even the negative serves to reinforce their belief system. If a member is contacted regarding concerns of the LC it might be considered to be "poisonous darts of the enemy", and a "test" for them. On a larger scale, as aron points out, "turmoils" are considered to be a "purification" of the LC. It's a mindset that is nearly impossible to tear apart. The smallest concerns regarding the LC are immediately dismissed. There can be no consideration of things that paint the LC in a bad light. Any concerns that do might be dismissed as "reasoning" or "opinions".

I really hope there comes the point in time when members begin to snap out of it. It's like a hypnotic state that serves only to support The Cause. Most members don't even realize what it is that they are serving or working towards. They refer to generic terms like "God's economy" and claim that as their goal, but what does that mean? The reality of it all is that in their lives, they assume that doing things like "rejecting fallen concepts" or "getting out of their minds" is going to result in something monumental. When it doesn't, they just assume they did something wrong, and proceed to try again. Never is there a full consideration of their end goal. If they had done that they would have long since jumped ship.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

... much of what is taught in the LC represents a dangerous mindset... much of the LC ministry material, especially the HWMR booklets serve to promote a particular style of thinking. ... certain themes such as: "we are nothing", "our opinions don't count", "we shouldn't act independently", "our natural abilities mean nothing", etc, etc. The underlying message is twofold, #1 is don't dare be independent and #2 don't dare assert yourself. The main problem with this is it leaves the door wide open for leaders to come in and start controlling. ...Just as importantly, the mindset closes the door to reasonably address any concerns when they arise..

The idea of innately rejecting all opinions as fallen doesn't stand up to the NT testimony. The Acts 15 conference in Jerusalem had all those present able to air their thoughts, feelings, and understandings without fear of intimidation. Look at v. 7: "after much discussion" Peter stood up and addressed the group (NIV). Where in the LC's vaunted "church life" do you see the opportunity for "much discussion"? Nowhere is where. The Deputy God has issued a pronouncement from the podium, and that's it. Get out of your mind, don't think, just be one with the latest speaking. No discussion, no consideration, no thought -- be "one" with Anaheim.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The idea of innately rejecting all opinions as fallen doesn't stand up to the NT testimony. The Acts 15 conference in Jerusalem had all those present able to air their thoughts, feelings, and understandings without fear of intimidation. Look at v. 7: "after much discussion" Peter stood up and addressed the group (NIV). Where in the LC's vaunted "church life" do you see the opportunity for "much discussion"? Nowhere is where. The Deputy God has issued a pronouncement from the podium, and that's it. Get out of your mind, don't think, just be one with the latest speaking. No discussion, no consideration, no thought -- be "one" with Anaheim.

It is amazing how the LC is able to twist scripture in order to create a belief system by which members have no ability to discuss, debate, or express opinions. Their reasons for doing this are clear, however, what does it say about LC doctrines when they can only exist in an environment where there is not room for critique? To me, it is a strong indicator that their doctrines are not so solid, else why the fear of critique? They get around this by constantly being on the offensive, it puts the focus on others instead of themselves. The blendeds think they have the right to affirm and critique others, but the minute someone critiques them, they get up in arms and even go so far as to take them to court.

I really hope that some members will get to the point where they can see for themselves what the underlying message is in the "get out of your mind" or "drop your concepts" type of thinking. It's dangerous, and it is a tool leaders use to silence people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Witness Lees youngest daughter, Mrs Lim, wife of Albert Lim, was solidly in the church in 1985. She went to the first FTT and I hardly heard of her later. She was in the church in Irving with all the appearances of a sound Christian woman. One of BP's girls was named after her. I think there might have been one other daughter in Elden Hall but not certain of this. I have a friend who was in Elden giving this info. Sure enough Phillip never was in meetings and there was real question about his salvation experience. Above I should have mentioned I met with Lee's daughter and Albert Lim for several years in Irving, TX. Since the Chineese met separately, I didn't see her that much. Albert was a very good translator. I thought he became a near BB. just an observation
Lisbon

Albert Lim is a blended to my understanding. At least being a co-speaker with Ed Marks on speaking tours.
Lisbon has opened a consideration. That being blendeds who are married into the Lee family is one more reason why the blendeds cannot reconsider and say "we were wrong" (concerning the late 80's turmoil) just as CRI had reconsidered their previous stance with the local churches.