What Defines The Local Church Movement?

[Jesus4Me]

What defines the Local Church Movement to you?

Can you summarize the highlights that signifies the people of that movement as being the members thereof?

What defining teachings separates it from the rest & the scripture that supposedly supports it?

I do not want a link to a series of books to read; just your take on it, even if it is not a full summary of what makes up the Local Church Movement. You can answer one of the three questions or two or all three or none at all, but wait to see what others will share.

I understand that not every member of a church is fully aware of all the teachings in that church that defines that church; and so I suspect the same will be for a movment.

Thank you for your time & attention.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

What defines the Local Church Movement to you?

The doctrine of "one church, one city." All Christians in a city should meet as one i.e. on the ground of "oneness". Some examples include the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), the church in Antioch (13:1), the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), and the church in Ephesus (Rev. 2:1).

Can you summarize the highlights that signifies the people of that movement as being the members thereof?

All genuine Christians are members, but they may be members of divisive denominations and thus not recognize the principle of the ground of oneness. They should drop their divisiveness and meet with/as the one church in the city that they are in.

What defining teachings separates it from the rest & the scripture that supposedly supports it?

It accepts the pure Word of scripture. It is separate from the lies and distortions of fallen Christianity.

I do not want a link to a series of books to read; just your take on it, even if it is not a full summary of what makes up the Local Church Movement.

I have given you my take on the basic principle that the Local Church movement claims for itself. Of course there is much more to it. But, I attempted to give you the most basic principle you were looking for as simply as possible.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

Can you summarize the highlights that signifies the people of that movement as being the members thereof?

At a general level, the "ground of locality" doctrine is something I see as a defining characteristic of the LCM, but not by any means the biggest defining characteristic. Just as important, if not more important, is that for any church to be considered as being part of the LCM, they must associate themselves with and utilize publications from a specific publishing house - the Living Stream Ministry (LSM). As far as I'm aware, there are other (but not very many) unaffiliated groups who practice this "ground of locality" doctrine as well. Only those who are associated with and use publications of the LSM, are recognized as being "genuine" local churches from the perspective of the LCM.

Regarding the less apparent defining characteristics (to outsiders) one of those is that everyone believes that both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were the "ministers of the age". The teaching goes something like this: in every age there is one minister, Martin Luther was the minister of his age, and Witness Lee was the ministry of his. They have a so-called lineage that they came up with starting with Martin Luther and of course leads up to none other than Nee and Lee. So besides the ground of locality, the LCM really revolves around the mindset that they posses a "vision" that no other group sees, that is only found in the ministries of W Nee and W Lee.

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

What defining teachings separates it from the rest & the scripture that supposedly supports it?

Besides the ground of locality, there are a few defining teachings that come to mind:

• They teach that according to 1 Thess 5:23, man is tripartite, having as spirit, soul, and body. They teach that the spirit must be "exercised", mainly by repetitious shouting of the phrase "O Lord Jesus!". It should also be noted that W. Nee was highly interested in all the "inner life" teachings, so there is a lot of that kind of influence in the LC. Everything is super subjective and esoteric. Say the wrong thing, and someone might say you are not using your spirit.

• They use the concept of the body of Christ as a cloak for group-think. They would say everything must be done together, "in the body". What that means is there's no individualism allowed. If someone expresses a differing opinion, they get labeled as being "divisive", dividing the body of Christ. Also significant is that they believe that any Christians outside their group are participating in division of some sort.

• Once significant teaching is that towards the end of his life, W. Lee claimed to have reached the "high peak of the divine revelation". The central element of what he claimed to be the "high peak" was his teaching of theosis as is expressed in the phrase "God became man to make man God". They would use the verses Psa 82:6 and what Jesus said in John 10:34-36 as support for this teaching. Because the teaching of theosis can be found in the writings of the Church Fathers (along with the phrase "God became man to make man God"), I've never understood how they can attribute Lee's emphasis on this teaching as him reaching a "high peak" that no one else before him had seen. Obviously what really happened is that Lee latched onto a teaching that other Christians felt to be of little value. At any rate, the real result of this teaching was the attitude of elitism. They will say things like: We see what no one else sees. Only in the local churches can we reach the "high peak". Only through the ministries of W Nee and W Lee is there any real substance. Yada yada.

[OBW]

There is one defining thing.

One city has one church under LSM leadership. I would agree with zeek on this.

But there are many defining things that grow on it:

• The Bible as interpreted by Lee (or said to be from Lee by the LSM) is authoritative. They incorrectly claim to just "be for the pure Word of God" because they essentially write some of that Word out of their bible, and insist that certain passages mean something other than what they say because of overlays generated by Lee.
• They believe in the Triune God, but then argue that the triune-ness of it is unimportant when they dismiss the persons and make them into each other.
• Absolute adherence to the teaching of a single man.
• They claim to be the only true "full gospel" but effectively provide a selective, partial gospel of faux spirituality.
• They argue against names, pointing to the actions of the Corinthians, then insist that only the teachings of Lee are worthy of being followed. It was the dividing over persons more than the names that was the error in Corinth. The names were the stand-in for the teachers.
• The fact is that there is only one church in any city. And for that matter, in the entire earth. But that is from the aspect of the unity that Christ provides. In practical terms, there are many "assemblies" because too many people in one assembly becomes problematic. (Just look at the largest of the mega-churches.) In practical terms, there are many assemblies in larger cities. And not all assemblies look and act the same. They are one in Christ, not in bank account.
• A system that excommunicates members for asking about sins of the leadership but goes to great lengths to cover those sins and keep those leaders in place — all contrary to the very Word of God that they claim to accept.

And so on.

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by zeek

I have given you my take on the basic principle that the Local Church movement claims for itself. Of course there is much more to it. But, I attempted to give you the most basic principle you were looking for as simply as possible.

Thank you for that. Now to discern this teaching with His help.

The doctrine of "one church, one city." All Christians in a city should meet as one i.e. on the ground of "oneness". Some examples include the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), the church in Antioch (13:1), the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), and the church in Ephesus (Rev. 2:1).

All genuine Christians are members, but they may be members of divisive denominations and thus not recognize the principle of the ground of oneness. They should drop their divisiveness and meet with/as the one church in the city that they are in.

Discern this with His help, because I do not see that church meant only one assembly in that city.

Revelations 2:¹⁸ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; ¹⁹ I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

It reads that this is an active church, but God has several things against her.

Revelation 2: ²⁰ Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. ²¹ And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. ²² Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. ²³ And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So after the threat of being left behind to be cast into the great tribulation that is coming unless they repent; I see these following scripture as attesting to not all being of one assembly.

Revelation 2:²⁴But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. ²⁵ But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Kind of hard to be of only the one assembly and not have that doctrine, AND which have not known the depths of Satan as they speak. There had to be other assemblies in that city in order for the believers to not have that doctrine and for not having known the depths of Satan for which they speak.

I believe church was an address to the body of believers as a whole, and not necessarily citing that there is to be one assembly in a city. In other words, the edification & reproof is applicable towards all believers in that city, regardless of what assembly they are in because His words stands as final on the matter from which a warning of judgments is coming for all to take heed.

It accepts the pure Word of scripture. It is separate from the lies and distortions of fallen Christianity.

It is too bad that believers did not prove everything from Watchman Lee & Nee by the scripture to see that the scripture can reprove their own distortions. If they had done that, there would never have been a Local Church Movement.

1 Thessalonians 5:²¹ Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. ²² Abstain from all appearance of evil. ²³ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁴ Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by Freedom

At a general level, the "ground of locality" doctrine is something I see as a defining characteristic of the LCM, but not by any means the biggest defining characteristic.

See post #5 for the reproof on why a church being addressed at a city is not necessarily meaning only one assembly. It has to deal with the church at Thyatira in Revelation as the source of this reproof that church at a city is just addressing all believers and that not all believers attend the one assembly where they are teaching error in. Be kind of hard for a believer to not have that dcotrine or not have known the depths of Satan for which this one errant assembly was invloved in unless they were not of that assembly, but of another.

Just as important, if not more important, is that for any church to be considered as being part of the LCM, they must associate themselves with and utilize publications from a specific publishing house - the Living Stream Ministry (LSM). As far as I'm aware, there are other (but not very many) unaffiliated groups who practice this "ground of locality" doctrine as well. Only those who are associated with and use publications of the LSM, are recognized as being "genuine" local churches from the perspective of the LCM.

So basically, the LC Movement & the Living Stream Ministry as become another version of the Pope of the RCC. All truths can only comes from them as they are to have a final say on what scripture really means.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

1 Corinthians 11:13But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 John 2:²⁶These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. ²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ²⁸ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Regarding the less apparent defining characteristics (to outsiders) one of those is that everyone believes that both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were the "ministers of the age". The teaching goes something like this: in every age there is one minister, Martin Luther was the minister of his age, and Witness Lee was the ministry of his. They have a so-called lineage that they came up with starting with Martin Luther and of course leads up to none other than Nee and Lee. So besides the ground of locality, the LCM really revolves around the mindset that they posses a "vision" that no other group sees, that is only found in the ministries of W Nee and W Lee.

Did they ever say who were the ministers of the age of His disciples? Probably not because then we have Paul demoting himself.

1 Corinthians 3:³ For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? ⁴ For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? ⁵ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? ⁶ I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. ⁷ So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Not sure how far Nee & Lee would have gotten away with their distortions if the believers had proved everything by Him in the scripture.

Besides the ground of locality, there are a few defining teachings that come to mind:

• They teach that according to 1 Thess 5:23, man is tripartite, having as spirit, soul, and body. They teach that the spirit must be "exercised", mainly by repetitious shouting of the phrase "O Lord Jesus!". It should also be noted that W. Nee was highly interested in all the "inner life" teachings, so there is a lot of that kind of influence in the LC. Everything is super subjective and esoteric. Say the wrong thing, and someone might say you are not using your spirit.

• They use the concept of the body of Christ as a cloak for group-think. They would say everything must be done together, "in the body". What that means is there's no individualism allowed. If someone expresses a differing opinion, they get labeled as being "divisive", dividing the body of Christ. Also significant is that they believe that any Christians outside their group are participating in division of some sort.

• Once significant teaching is that towards the end of his life, W. Lee claimed to have reached the "high peak of the divine revelation". The central element of what he claimed to be the "high peak" was his teaching of theosis as is expressed in the phrase "God became man to make man God". They would use the verses Psa 82:6 and what Jesus said in John 10:34-36 as support for this teaching. Because the teaching of theosis can be found in the writings of the Church Fathers (along with the phrase "God became man to make man God"), I've never understood how they can attribute Lee's emphasis on this teaching as him reaching a "high peak" that no one else before him had seen. Obviously what really happened is that Lee latched onto a teaching that other Christians felt to be of little value. At any rate, the real result of this teaching was the attitude of elitism. They will say things like: We see what no one else sees. Only in the local churches can we reach the "high peak". Only through the ministries of W Nee and W Lee is there any real substance. Yada yada.

Romans 12:³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. ⁴ For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: ⁵ So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another..... ⁹ Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. ¹⁰ Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

1 Corinthians 12:¹³ For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ¹⁴ For the body is not one member, but many. ¹⁵ If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? ¹⁶ And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? ¹⁷ If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? ¹⁸ But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. ¹⁹ And if they were all one member, where were the body? ²⁰ But now are they many members, yet but one body. ²¹ And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. ²² Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: ²³ And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. ²⁴ For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. ²⁵ That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. ²⁶ And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. ²⁷ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So basically, somehow; Nee & Lee not only became the "head" but directed the body in such a way to deny its part in the body of Christ. They did not treat the other parts of the body with the respect & preference & honour that Paul had written that they were to give. Neither Lee nor Nee can say that they did not think more highly of themselves than they ought to think.

Proverbs 25:²⁷ It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.

John 7:¹⁸ He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 3:²⁸ Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. ²⁹ He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. ³⁰ He must increase, but I must decrease.

2 Corinthians 4:⁵ For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. ⁶ For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. ⁷ But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

With His help, scripture could have pulled the rug out from underneathe Nee & Lee before the Local Church Movement had ever gotten off the ground.

[awareness]

J4M,

I feel to clear up a misunderstanding you might still have concerning "one church one city."

It's not one assembly one city. The official teaching of one church one city, from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, is that all born again Christians are in the church in the city they live in, even if they don't realize it ... according to how Nee and Lee see the NT pattern. (To be clear, there is no official teaching of one church one city in the NT.)

So, according to this paradigm, all Christians are the church in the city they live in, but don't have to meet in the same assembly. In L.A. Cal, for example, where Lee started out here in America, there were many meeting halls. Yet they all considered themselves the church in L.A., along with all the other Christians. And their burden was, or was suppose to be, or is, to teach all the other Christians that they are being divisive of the body of Christ by failing to meet in the NT pattern.

Just a note here, and this is me and not the Lord (as Paul says), one church one city is a Cargo Cult method of trying to call down God's cargo (blessings). They call it preparation of the bride for the bridegroom. So, as the plan goes, one church one city is the final stage for that preparation, and in my parlance, is a method to call down God's cargo (the second coming).

If you're not familiar with the Cargo Cults, and to save me the time of explaining it, you can start at the link below. To me, cargo cult thinking is a primitive way, a superstitious way, of viewing the supernatural, or unseen, world ... that still lingers in our nature. So cargo cult methods are clearly of the natural man, or of the flesh ... or in the least, are methods of man, and not God. In short, I guess it could be said, that, it's trying to make thinks just right, using wishful thinking, hoping it will please the gods, or God in this case ... that will then deliver the goodies (the return of Jesus, in this case).

[Jesus4Me]

It seems the "quote" button is no longer working for me.

awareness's : I feel to clear up a misunderstanding you might still have concerning "one church one city."

It's not one assembly one city. The official teaching of one church one city, from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, is that all born again Christians are in the church in the city they live in, even if they don't realize it ... according to how Nee and Lee see the NT pattern. (To be clear, there is no official teaching of one church one city in the NT.)

So, according to this paradigm, all Christians are the church in the city they live in, but don't have to meet in the same assembly.

Well, I reckon that, regardless of it not being one assembly one city, but one church one city, it still place all the assemblies of that city under one head and thus one church and thus inferring one assembly, no matter where they meet or at different times either, when they are to be under one authority of the church of that city.

That seems to be the testimony shared by OBW's & zeek on this.

OBW's :There is one defining thing.

One city has one church under LSM leadership. I would agree with zeek on this.

and...

zeek's :The doctrine of "one church, one city." All Christians in a city should meet as one i.e. on the ground of "oneness". Some examples include the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), the church in Antioch (13:1), the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), and the church in Ephesus (Rev. 2:1).

All genuine Christians are members, but they may be members of divisive denominations and thus not recognize the principle of the ground of oneness. They should drop their divisiveness and meet with/as the one church in the city that they are in.

So basically, LCM expects ro serve as the head of all assemblies to be as one church regardless of where they meet nor the times they meet in that city.

OBW's :The Bible as interpreted by Lee (or said to be from Lee by the LSM) is authoritative.

Mark 10:⁴² But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. ⁴³ But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: ⁴⁴ And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. ⁴⁵ For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The Word of God; Christ is the Head of every believer and that is Whom we are to be subjected to. The leaders & the believers are to be ensamples to the flock.

1 Corinthians 4:¹⁵ For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. ¹⁶ Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. ¹⁷ For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. ² Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. ³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Philippians 3: ¹⁴ I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. ¹⁵ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. ¹⁶ Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. ¹⁷ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. ¹⁸ (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: ¹⁹ Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) ²⁰ For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: ²¹ Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

It should be obvious that Paul was warning about Watchman Nee & Lee here. If Paul points to his example as following Christ personally, then those that follow the example of Paul, shall follow Christ personally.

Paul wasn't exactly saying, "Follow me.." as if following Paul personally, but follow his example of following Christ personally.

Believers really need to disregard all of Watchman Lee's & Nee's teachings and just trust Jesus Christ as their personal Good Shepherd for help & guidance thru the KJV in following Him in being His disciples and not the disciples of Watchman Lee & Nee & the Living Stream Ministries.

In the Book of Revelation, it should be pointed out that the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes ( conquering the laity ) is having all the churches under one heirarchy which was hated by God in the church at Pergamos whereas the deeds of the Nicolaitanes were sexual immoralities which was hated by God in the church at Ephesus.

Again, there can be no outside authority of that assembly because Christ as the Word of God is to be the Head of that assembly as He is the head of every believer. Believers are to be submissive to the Word of God; and the leaders should be serving Him in that capacity of having believers submitted to the Word of God; not to them, since they can not be with the believers always, but Jesus Christ is.

Freedom's :They teach that according to 1 Thess 5:23, man is tripartite, having as spirit, soul, and body. They teach that the spirit must be "exercised", mainly by repetitious shouting of the phrase "O Lord Jesus!".

Again, scripture should have been able to end the LCM movement before it ever began.

Matthew 6:⁵ And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. ⁶ But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. ⁷ But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ⁸ Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I thank you all for sharing.

For those delivered by the Lord Jesus Christ out of the LCM, do pray for those members that are still in it since the battle is His and only God can cause the increase. Mayhap He is peradventuring t recover some from this snare of the devil by returning to their first love by seeking the face of the Bridegroom in living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:¹⁰ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. ¹¹ Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. ¹² For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ¹³ Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

James 4:⁶ But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. ⁷ Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ⁸ Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. ⁹ Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. ¹⁰ Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

Kind of hard to be of only the one assembly and not have that doctrine, AND which have not known the depths of Satan as they speak. There had to be other assemblies in that city in order for the believers to not have that doctrine and for not having known the depths of Satan for which they speak.
I believe church was an address to the body of believers as a whole, and not necessarily citing that there is to be one assembly in a city. In other words, the edification & reproof is applicable towards all believers in that city, regardless of what assembly they are in because His words stands as final on the matter from which a warning of judgments is coming for all to take heed.

No matter how many assemblies there were in Thyatira, the Lord only addresses the one church in that one city, thus supporting the Nee/Lee thesis. As Watchman Nee says in "Further Talks on the Church Life":

Now we shall go on to see the reason we stress the expression of unity in locality. This is because the church in the Bible is local. We have spoken about this for many years and have mentioned it even now a number of times. The church in the Bible is local. A single exception cannot be seen in the whole New Testament. All the churches are local: the church in Jerusalem, the church in Antioch, the church in Corinth, the church in Philippi, the church in Colossae, etc. All the examples in the Bible are local. For example, in the book of Revelation, the churches in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea are all local. God ordained one church in each locality. The localities and the churches are equal to each other. The countries on the earth are divided into cities; the church of God on the earth today is also divided into cities. In the world there is the locality of Shanghai; hence, there is a church in Shanghai before God. In the world there is a locality of Nanking; hence, there is the church in Nanking before God. In the world there are the localities of Sian and Lanchow; hence, there is the church in Sian and the church in Lanchow before God. As long as there is a place big enough to be a locality, there should be a church in that locality. If our place is not big enough to be a locality, we cannot be a church. Lanchow is big enough in the eyes of God to be a locality; therefore, there can be a church in Lanchow. Before God this matter is very clear.

The Bible determines a locality according to the limit of a city or a village. In 1 Corinthians for example, which we have just read, there is a very good word: “Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church” (4:17). “Everywhere” is the locality; “every church” is the spiritual content. In every locality there is a church. “Everywhere” is divided in the Bible according to a city or a village. The Lord Jesus preached the gospel in every city and in every village (Matt. 9:35); therefore, the unit of locality is the city or village. Paul said to Titus, “Appoint elders in every city, as I directed you” (Titus 1:5). During that time Paul preached the gospel in the cities; he had not gone into the villages. Hence, he did not mention villages. All the churches in the Bible are local. This is the problem today: The unity of the children of God must have locality as its unit. In other words, the minimum unit for the unity of the children of God must be the unit of locality. All the children of God in the same locality must be one. This is the minimum requirement.

[awareness]

Bro J4M yer still not completely informed on Nee and Lee's one church one city doctrine.

Also included in the doctrine was, is, that, a local church is autonomous. It is elder led.

And include me in your point. That, Jesus is the head of every believer. Amen! I tend to hold to, in some fashion or another, Christian anarchy ... at least mentally. As prolly can be seen in my posts.

Yes the anonymous gospel that eventually came to be called Matthew has Jesus saying, "Call no man Father. You have one Father. Nether be ye called masters ... etc."

But back to the "local" of local church. If we take the questionable "T" epistles seriously, we are to ordain elders over the local church. And elders are to rule well.

Of course we can use scripture to support just about anything. And the same scripture can support two different positions.

For example. Your verses pointing out where Paul says imitate me, and "my ways." You seem to think that Paul meant follow what I'm doing, which is following Jesus.

But it could also mean "you should follow the apostle." And that's the way Nee and Lee conveniently took it to mean: that we today are to follow the apostle. And when it comes to the local church (LCM or some such) Nee was the first apostle, then Lee became the final apostle.

It's all in how the scripture is interpreted. You have your way, and Nee and Lee had theirs. And there are thousands of hermeneutics developed from arranging scripture verses.

Is yours more authoritative than Nee's and Lee's? Forget inerrancy of scripture. Who has the inerrant interpretation?

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by zeek

No matter how many assemblies there were in Thyatira, the Lord only addresses the one church in that one city,

I understand this part and agree with it....

thus supporting the Nee/Lee thesis. As Watchman Nee says in "Further Talks on the Church Life":

But I do not agree with that "thesis" as scripture can reprove that "application".

The Lord addressing the church at Thyatira; He was addressing in general, all the believers at Thyatira, BUT out of that body of believers at that city, the church at Thyatira, the believers suffer a following of believers in that city to allow a prophetess to teach which led to several iniquities;

After the Lord warned of those believers in that following of the consequence of being cast into the great tribulation unless they repent, He addressed the remaining believers that are not of that following that did not hold to that errant doctrine nor heard the depths of Satan which those errant followers were speaking; to hold fast which they had received.

So in practise; every believer of that city were NOT under a governing authority, otherwise, how could any church in a city go astray?

Now ... out of all the churches addressed in Revelation; the Lord never referred the church at that city to refer to the authority of the church at Smyrna nor Philadelphia to govern them as those two churches were the only two churches out of the seven that the Lord commended and yet exhorted to continue.

Out of those two good churches, neither one or the other were exhorted as the better church or the church.

Now out of all of those churches, none of them were refer to some great minister of the age as the final authority either.

So this is where Watchman Nee/Lee are found wanting because they are distorting scripture to place them in authority where no example had really been plainly set as such for them to claim as being authoritative Biblically.

Christ is the Head, as all believers are to be submissive to the Word of God; not a church nor a "self proclaimed glory boasting apostle".

In other words, all believers are to look to Him & His words for discernment & guidance and His help & power for following Him; and not looking to a church or an "apostle" for their approval or acceptance in their walk with the Lord, because in reality, that "walk" is with Nee/Lee & not the Lord.

Whenever we are to correct any believer, we do so by the word of God, relying on Him to cause the increase. We are not to seek believers in being submissive to us, but to the Word of God as Lord of their lives for He is with them always whereas we cannot.

Whenever Paul in his epistles or the Lord in the Book of Revelation address a church at a city; what is written is referring to all believers in Jesus Christ; the warning and the exhortations fits only those that His words apply to at that present time in where they are in their walk with the Lord, but His words is applicable to all believers and so all believers must believe that the judgment rendered to those astray will apply to them also if they that were in the right path, but decided to go astray.

Paul even states in his epistle that just because it is addressed to a church at a city, that it does not apply anywhere else, because he instructed that the epistle to that city is to be read elsewhere.

Colossians 4:16And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:²⁷ I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

So essentially, church means all the believers of that city, but not necessarily of that one assembly as you say, but there is no evidence of a governing authority as a church nor as a minister of the age when believers are all to be submissive to the Head, the Word of God, as the final authority over any matter since Jesus Christ is Lord; no one else; not a church, nor person.

Jesus said in John 10:7-8, that He is the door and that all those that try to come before Him is a robber & a thief which is exactly what Watchman Nee/Lee were.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ² But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep......⁷ Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. ⁸ All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. ⁹ I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

His servants points believers to go to Jesus for guidance & help in following Him.

Thieves points to themselves to come to for guidance and help in following Him.

Believers need to repent by departing from the LC movement and trust Jesus Christ to be their Good Shepherd and no one else. Watchman Nee/Lee are not the doors to be living that reconciled relationship with God thru; it is Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:¹⁷ Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. ¹⁸ And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; ¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. ²⁰ Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ²¹ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

If you really think about it, members of the LC Movement are being ambassaders of the LC Movement. That is not the same thing as being ambassaders of Christ when exalting a means as if that is the "Christ" in how we are to live that reconciled relationship with God thru. That is an antichrist.

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro J4M yer still not completely informed on Nee and Lee's one church one city doctrine.

Okay, and I am open to correction, but I do wonder if actual LC members are the same as not on the same page on that issue as well.

Also included in the doctrine was, is, that, a local church is autonomous. It is elder led.

Well, to be fair, there are more than one elder/bishop in a church.

1 Peter 5:1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: ² Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; ³ Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. ⁴ And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

It is my understanding that the elders are to watch over the flock which includes the pastor. If the pastor says something that is not clear that can be taken in the wrong way or lead someone astray, they are to stand up and asked the pastor to clarify that point & why.

And include me in your point. That, Jesus is the head of every believer. Amen! I tend to hold to, in some fashion or another, Christian anarchy ... at least mentally. As prolly can be seen in my posts.

Jesus being the Word of God, is Whom we are to be submissive to as He is the Head, but He will be the One giving discernment & wisdom in understanding His words and know which are not His words or wrongful application of His words.

Yes the anonymous gospel that eventually came to be called Matthew has Jesus saying, "Call no man Father. You have one Father. Nether be ye called masters ... etc."

Continuing the scripture that was earlier referenced:

1 Peter 5:⁵ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. ⁶ Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: ⁷ Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. ⁸ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ⁹ Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Of course, the elder serving Him will be referring to the scripture & teaching the younger to rely on Jesus as their Good Shepherd in confirming His words to them. And yes, the elder is subjected to the same Word of God. Those looking to Christ as their Good Shepherd, He will show them when they are being misled by the elder and that is when it is plain that the elder is not being submissive to the Word of God.

But back to the "local" of local church. If we take the questionable "T" epistles seriously, we are to ordain elders over the local church. And elders are to rule well.

Of course we can use scripture to support just about anything. And the same scripture can support two different positions.

For example. Your verses pointing out where Paul says imitate me, and "my ways." You seem to think that Paul meant follow what I'm doing, which is following Jesus.

But it could also mean "you should follow the apostle." And that's the way Nee and Lee conveniently took it to mean: that we today are to follow the apostle. And when it comes to the local church (LCM or some such) Nee was the first apostle, then Lee became the final apostle.

It's all in how the scripture is interpreted. You have your way, and Nee and Lee had theirs. And there are thousands of hermeneutics developed from arranging scripture verses.

Is yours more authoritative than Nee's and Lee's? Forget inerrancy of scripture. Who has the inerrant interpretation?

Does my interpretation exalts me or Jesus Christ? Do I go around claiming to be an apostle or some special prophet of the age?

And yet Nee's & Lee's cannot say that they are not exalting themselves in the process of interpreting scripture, being the "first" and "last" apostle as if they are the ministers of that age.

Do I refer believers to confirm the word with their Good Shepherd personally or not?

And yet Nee's & Lee's are asking believers to rely on them for understanding scripture and being the final authority on what scripture says.

By God's grace & help, I am using scripture to point believers to keep going to Jesus Christ in living this reconciled relationship with God thru.

Nee & Lee are pointing everybody to come to them for living that reconciled relationship with God thru.

So it depends on how someone is using scripture; are they using scripture to point you to Jesus? Or are they using scripture to point to themselves?

John 5: ³⁹ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. ⁴⁰ And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. ⁴¹ I receive not honour from men. ⁴² But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. ⁴³ I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. ⁴⁴ How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? ⁵ Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. ⁴⁶ For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. ⁴⁷ But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

So scripture is important after all, brother, because they point you to Jesus Christ in being His disciple and not somewhere else to be a disciple of that person or that church or that movement.

[awareness]

That was a great response bro J4M (#12).

Some more details about Nee and Lee's local church:

The local churches, in their particular cities, typically had three elders. And they had no what is typically known as pastors, or clergy. They took the the verses in the book of Revelation about the Nicolaitans as the clergy/laity system, or a system where the "Nico" (victory over)- controls the "laos" or the laity. So no clergy in the local churches, or laity either, btw. Elders, most of the time, had jobs like everyone else, and weren't on the payroll.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

That was a great response bro J4M (#12).

Some more details about Nee and Lee's local church:

The local churches, in their particular cities, typically had three elders. And they had no what is typically known as pastors, or clergy. They took the the verses in the book of Revelation about the Nicolaitans as the clergy/laity system, or a system where the "Nico" (victory over)- controls the "laos" or the laity. So no clergy in the local churches, or laity either, btw. Elders, most of the time, had jobs like everyone else, and weren't on the payroll.

Nee and especially Lee went rogue. We know from Acts and the writings of the Early Fathers that in many cities there were various meeting places for Christians. Of course, we also know that there were various leaders of the churches in these cities who carried considerable weight not only in their own cities but beyond. (see First Clement aprox 95AD...Ch. 1 vs 1-2) "...the church of God in Rome..." to "...the church of God in Corinth.." "...your good name, once so famous and dear to us all, has fallen into the gravest ill repute..." Ch. 44:1-3 "Now our apostles, thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that there was going to be strife over the title of bishop...It was for this reason and because they had been given an accurate knowledge of the future, that they appointed the officers we have mentioned. Furthermore, they later added a codicil to the effect that, should these die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry....In the light of this, we view it as a breach of justice to remove from their ministry those who were appointed either by them [i.e., the apostles] or later on and with the whole church's consent, by others of the proper standing..." vs 6 But you, we observe, have removed a number of people, despite their good conduct, from a ministry they have fulfilled with honor and integrity."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Nee and especially Lee went rogue. We know from Acts and the writings of the Early Fathers that in many cities there were various meeting places for Christians. Of course, we also know that there were various leaders of the churches in these cities who carried considerable weight not only in their own cities but beyond. (see First Clement aprox 95AD...Ch. 1 vs 1-2) "...the church of God in Rome..." to "...the church of God in Corinth.." "...your good name, once so famous and dear to us all, has fallen into the gravest ill repute..." Ch. 44:1-3 "Now our apostles, thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that there was going to be strife over the title of bishop...It was for this reason and because they had been given an accurate knowledge of the future, that they appointed the officers we have mentioned. Furthermore, they later added a codicil to the effect that, should these die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry....In the light of this, we view it as a breach of justice to remove from their ministry those who were appointed either by them [i.e., the apostles] or later on and with the whole church's consent, by others of the proper standing..." vs 6 But you, we observe, have removed a number of people, despite their good conduct, from a ministry they have fulfilled with honor and integrity."

Good point Dave. Christianity was going every which way early on, even in Paul's day. And 1 John is fighting the heresy of docetism at the turn of the century, a powerful and widespread movement.

But wasn't Nee and Lee claiming that they were recovering the earliest truest expression of the church? And also, that it was the final preparation of the bride for the coming bridegroom? Why didn't the bridegroom come back back then, when the church was pure? And if the gates of hell wasn't to prevail how did the Roman Catholic church completely corrupt it?

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by Dave

Nee and especially Lee went rogue. We know from Acts and the writings of the Early Fathers that in many cities there were various meeting places for Christians. Of course, we also know that there were various leaders of the churches in these cities who carried considerable weight not only in their own cities but beyond. (see First Clement aprox 95AD...Ch. 1 vs 1-2) "...the church of God in Rome..." to "...the church of God in Corinth.." "...your good name, once so famous and dear to us all, has fallen into the gravest ill repute..." Ch. 44:1-3 "Now our apostles, thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that there was going to be strife over the title of bishop...

Did Clement referenced the scripture that spoke of where the apostles had this knowledge that there will be strife over the title of bishop?

It was for this reason and because they had been given an accurate knowledge of the future, that they appointed the officers we have mentioned. Furthermore, they later added a codicil to the effect that, should these die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry....In the light of this, we view it as a breach of justice to remove from their ministry those who were appointed either by them [i.e., the apostles] or later on and with the whole church's consent, by others of the proper standing..." vs 6 But you, we observe, have removed a number of people, despite their good conduct, from a ministry they have fulfilled with honor and integrity."

Did Clement refer to the scriptural reference in the N.T. where the apostles set forth the practise of appointing someone to take over their ministry once they had passed on? I see the instructions for appointing an elder and a deacon, but nothing so flamboyant as appointing someone in taking over a ministry of an elder or a ruling bishop that had passed on as if handing down the mantle of ministry or of authority in that manner.

1 Peter 5:The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Reads to me that an elder doesn't have to be in that church or in that assembly, but can be treated as an elder should Peter visited them.

Plus, it reveals that there is no one bishop or one elder with authority, and it is because the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the reigning authority over every one as it is God that is ministering and working thru every believer by the Word of God, and that includes the elders & bishops.

It would be a safe bet that 1st Clement began the slippery slope of developing a system of authority of governing bishops, rather than maintaining submission to the real Head, the Word of God, where elders/bishops were to serve as ensamples to the flock in following Jesus by abiding in His words as His disciples.

Mark 10:⁴² But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. ⁴³ But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: ⁴⁴ And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. ⁴⁵ For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Let's go over the requirement for a bishop.

1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. ² A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; ³ Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; ⁴ One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; ⁵ (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) ⁶ Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. ⁷ Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

I do not see any thing about how bishops are to be selected to be ready to take over another more ruling bishop once that head bishop passed on. Since there are more than one bishop in a church, and can exists outside the church, that means another authority is over them all for them to insure that when a bishop falls as exposed by the scripture, he is to be exposed before all and removed from office by the other bishops.

1 Timothy 5:¹⁷ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.¹⁸ For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. ¹⁹ Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. ²⁰ Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

That authority is the scripture. The elders are to be submissive to the Word of God just as every believer are to be. There is no real submission to an elder when the elder is leading believers to be submissive to the authority of the Word of God.

So an elder is not the actual governing authority, but governing by referring to the authority of the scripture as the scripture is what believers & elders are to be submissive to in all things in being His disciples and not a disciple of that elder or church or movement.

If a church gets wiped out of all of its elders, and the survivors start up another church; they have the scripture to do so in discerning and finding other elders & deacons in the service of Him & His words as His disciples.

I think the RCC used Clement's writings to establish the handing down of the authority of the Pope over all the Catholic churches.

It stands to reasons that even the early church fathers' writings should be proved by Him & the scripture and not taken at face value as Biblical teaching when Clement's referring to something not actually written in scripture.

This is not saying that those that have fallen are not His or were not saved, but scripture clearly states to cling to His words; and not the words of another if you want to be His disciple and not a disciple of another.