Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf

Ron Kangas – Thank you for the invitation, Chris, to participate in this particular radio program introducing quite a marvelous subject, of theocracy, of the rule of God…. I hope that we can be very exercised in our spirit and with our understanding …In Deuteronomy is a record of the children of Israel, a type of us, the believers, the church people today, so there must be a spiritual reality in the church life that corresponds to the outward picture of theocracy among the children of Israel. (LSM radio transcription).

Witness Lee – We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.

Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. Right? This is justice. (LSM radio transcription)

[OBW]

Any comments on what you post?

Are they right, wrong, partly both?

Is there truth but misapplied?

[Indiana]

I won't be adding any further material on the subject, and shortened link content in post #303.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Indiana

With the minds of elders galvanized into one accord for a man and a ministry, elders handed over the reins of leadership in their localities to a universal leader. Turmoil and division was the result, with blame placed on certain leaders who chose not to submit to an extra-local leader.

From the very beginnings of "The Lord's Recovery" in America, the minds of all of Witness Lee's followers (NOT just the elders) were galvanized into one accord for a man and a ministry. The elders didn't have to hand over the reins of leadership because they never had it to begin with. And one by one, over the decades, various elders/co workers found this harsh reality out. Anytime a local elder would try to exercise even the slightest bit of independence, no matter how it was going to be for the benefit of the local flock, he would be "reported to headquarters" and severely rebuked by Lee himself, or if he was lucky, Lee would send out a hatchet man to do the work for him. This dynamic was repeated over and over again, and is well documented by the testimony of many brothers, some on this very forum.

Since the original "Church in Los Angeles" spit into different halls, and since the advent of the early migrations, the Local Churches in America had an "extra-local leader" and his name was Witness Lee. Any other so called "co-worker" or any kind of regional leader was in fact just a "regional manager" of sorts, with the elders functioning as "branch managers" of sorts. Lee was the CEO/CFO/President all wrapped into one. Actually this was "the system" set up by Watchman Nee back in Mainland China from the very beginning. Of course Witness Lee enhanced and perfected the system.

While Lee was alive there was a tacit understanding by all that this system was in place and that's just how things were. Of course anyone who challenged the system was severely dealt with, by removal, shunning or the dreaded "quarantine".

Today, the "Blended Brothers" don't even try to deny the system or the history of this system. There is indeed an extra-local leader, it is "the ministry" aka "the One Publication". While Lee was alive the Local Churches were lead and controlled by the person and work of Witness Lee. Now that the person is gone they only have the work, and this is why the Local Church looks and behaves very much like the systematic, institutionalized, religious organization that it has decried for 50 years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

From the very beginnings of "The Lord's Recovery" in America, the minds of all of Witness Lee's followers (NOT just the elders) were galvanized into one accord for a man and a ministry. The elders didn't have to hand over the reins of leadership because they never had it to begin with. And one by one, over the decades, various elders/co workers found this harsh reality out.

Every time I think about this post, I can't let it go and just be silent.

Every single brother I knew believed that our mission was "Christ and the church," and that we gave our lives for the building up of autonomous local churches. That's why many of them left their denominations. Every message Lee and others gave in the beginning days supported this mission statement. Many who came this way did so after reading Nee's book TNCCL.

Now whether Lee, or leaders like RK, BP, TC or others had this view is doubtful, since I have witnessed so much meddling in local affairs by these ones.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every time I think about this post, I can't let it go and just be silent.

Every single brother I knew believed that our mission was "Christ and the church," and that we gave our lives for the building up of autonomous local churches. That's why many of them left their denominations. Every message Lee and others gave in the beginning days supported this mission statement. Many who came this way did so after reading Nee's book TNCCL.

Now whether Lee, or leaders like RK, BP, TC or others had this view is doubtful, since I have witnessed so much meddling in local affairs by these ones.

And I think we really believed it. But after the fact, I think that we were fed false information as to what was truly Christ and the church, therefore we were misguided, even from the beginning. We just didn't realize it. We brought a desire for Christ. We got fed something that was labeled "Christ and the church" and we accepted that it was real. Only when the mantra began to alter did we leave.

And though I do not think we were really that "right" before, at least we woke up. But I am becoming more and more convinced that even many of our positive experiences in the earlier (earliest) days were tainted by the shadow of a leavened teaching. Even Christ and the church, because we were misdirected to a version of both that was not true to the Word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

And I think we really believed it. But after the fact, I think that we were fed false information as to what was truly Christ and the church, therefore we were misguided, even from the beginning. We just didn't realize it. We brought a desire for Christ. We got fed something that was labeled "Christ and the church" and we accepted that it was real. Only when the mantra began to alter did we leave.

And though I do not think we were really that "right" before, at least we woke up. But I am becoming more and more convinced that even many of our positive experiences in the earlier (earliest) days were tainted by the shadow of a leavened teaching. Even Christ and the church, because we were misdirected to a version of both that was not true to the Word.

What's interesting is that so many others have gone down this similar path. Both John Darby and W. Nee and W. Lee have all started out promising local assemblies patterned after Antioch only to morph themselves into controlling headquarters patterned after Jerusalem.

I wouldn't be surprised if most denominations have followed a similar road. The RCC definitely did. Remember that the lust for power always corrupts, and the powers-that-be love to use distorted oneness to subjugate the sheep.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I won't be adding any further material on the subject, and shortened link content in post #303.

In other words you are continuing to post "facts" but making no comments on them, thereby leaving it unclear what you are trying to say. And since you have in other contexts seemed to say things that have gone both ways over time, that lack of clarity is fairly significant.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf

Witness Lee – We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.

Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. Right? This is justice. (LSM radio transcription)

The LSM/LC brand of theocracy is a skewed one. It is not recognized when a brother is under Christ's headship. Rather the LSM brand of theocracy is according to group think (aka being one with the brothers). It is this form of group think who claim to determine God's government.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf

Ron Kangas – Thank you for the invitation, Chris, to participate in this particular radio program introducing quite a marvelous subject, of theocracy, of the rule of God…. I hope that we can be very exercised in our spirit and with our understanding …In Deuteronomy is a record of the children of Israel, a type of us, the believers, the church people today, so there must be a spiritual reality in the church life that corresponds to the outward picture of theocracy among the children of Israel. (LSM radio transcription).

Witness Lee – We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.

Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. Right? This is justice. (LSM radio transcription)

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf

I made more changes and want to re-post the link on Theocracy.

Government in the Local Churches

Our brothers in Christ have taken bold and daring steps to become what they are, ministry churches of Witness Lee. This is what they have labored for, and this is what they have gained. I wish they would admit what they are, instead of pretending to be the recovered New Testament church, inclusive of all believers in autonomous “local churches” around the world.

They have had no shame about promoting a man next to the Lord Jesus, or for establishing a second center to draw people to him in oneness with his ministry and leadership.

Due to their lofty standing of ultimately endorsing a “minister of the age” with the “ministry of the age”, it is hard for the leaders to practice justice in cases that shine light unfavorably on the name of Witness Lee - the name they live to protect. Practicing justice in such cases is not what they do; it is what they most assuredly choose to avoid.

Because of this, government in the Local Churches has not been built upon justice. Instead, their architect and builders are widely known for their absurd practice of not caring for right and wrong - the antithesis of a true theocracy, a government built upon justice, according to God and what He is.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Theocracy...alChurches.pdf

I made more changes and want to re-post the link on Theocracy.

Government in the Local Churches

Our brothers in Christ have taken bold and daring steps to become what they are, ministry churches of Witness Lee. This is what they have labored for, and this is what they have gained. I wish they would admit what they are, instead of pretending to be the recovered New Testament church, inclusive of all believers in autonomous “local churches” around the world.

They have had no shame about promoting a man next to the Lord Jesus, or for establishing a second center to draw people to him in oneness with his ministry and leadership.

Due to their lofty standing of ultimately endorsing a “minister of the age” with the “ministry of the age”, it is hard for the leaders to practice justice in cases that shine light unfavorably on the name of Witness Lee - the name they live to protect. Practicing justice in such cases is not what they do; it is what they most assuredly choose to avoid.

Because of this, government in the Local Churches has not been built upon justice. Instead, their architect and builders are widely known for their absurd practice of not caring for right and wrong - the antithesis of a true theocracy, a government built upon justice, according to God and what He is.

Example 1

THE SUBTLE ISSUES OF RIGHT AND WRONG
DURING THE LATE EIGHTIES REBELLION

I was listening to a tape by Ron Kangas (from 1997) encouraging saints to follow the sense of life in a normal way in their daily life and not care for issues of right or wrong, when I came to this statement:

“How many were lured away during the last rebellion (late 80s) by subtle issues of right and wrong.” Referring to the talk going around in the church about certain issues, he said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to those concerned with issues of right and wrong in the church.

What were those issues of right and wrong, brother Ron, in the late 80s turmoil? Didn’t you write about them in your book, A Response to Recent Accusations, in which you recorded your disagreement with the 18 points John Ingalls made to the church in his resignation fellowship?

Brother Lee also spoke to these issues that John Ingalls raised, saying that, “In his withdrawal from the eldership of the church in Anaheim on March 19, 1989, Brother John Ingalls charged us with a number of accusations concerning our present situation. Hence, I have the burden to present to the saints in the Lord’s recovery some truths that will blow away the cloud that has dimmed the clear vision of the Lord’s recovery among us, and will bring back to us a clear sky with a clear view in the recovery.” Then, brother Lee goes on to explain his disagreement with “John’s dissenting accusations”. (Book 10, Elders’ Training, ch. 6, p. 93)

What two major leaders in the Lord’s recovery referred to as “subtle issues” and “dissenting accusations”, others regarded as major matters of Christian conscience and causes of stumbling that needed desperate attention from responsible church leaders.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/SubtleIssues.pdf

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Example 1

THE SUBTLE ISSUES OF RIGHT AND WRONG
DURING THE LATE EIGHTIES REBELLION

I was listening to a tape by Ron Kangas (from 1997) encouraging saints to follow the sense of life in a normal way in their daily life and not care for issues of right or wrong, when I came to this statement:

[COLOR="Indigo"]“How many were lured away during the last rebellion (late 80s) by subtle issues of right and wrong.” Referring to the talk going around in the church about certain issues, he said, “What a travesty that the saints of God would speak out of the knowledge of good and evil and kill each other.” He added, “I simply will not sit in a brothers’ presence and allow him to fill me with death,” meaning that he would not listen to those concerned with issues of right and wrong in the church.

Expediency: Convenient and practical, although possibly improper or immoral.

Brothers who say they don't want to be concerned with right and wrong, that's because to be concerned with right and wrong is not the expedient thing to do. To be concerned with right and wrong, righteousness, and justice is neither convenient nor practical. LSM's practice of political correctness promotes expediency even if it may be improper or even immoral.

[Ohio]

What Ron Kangas flippantly discards as "subtle issues of right and wrong" are actually grave matters of sin and unrighteousness. When I hear this nonsense from someone in the know, then I realize what grave darkness and blindness has descended over time upon the leadership at LSM. For decades they have been complicit with crimes and coverups against their brothers.

Isn't it so hypocritical that RK could say this about so many former members and leaders, all of whom beloved and godly, and then when genuinely "subtle issues of right and wrong" arise in nearly all of the Midwest and Brazil, he sees fit to quarantine and excommunicate them as as incurably rebellious lepers.

If anyone wishes to know who the Blended leadership at LSM really are, tell them to read what the Lord Jesus Himself says of and to the Pharisees in the Gospels and what the Apostle Paul says about the Judaizers. Let me give you an appetizer from the book of Philippians: "Beware of dogs! Beware of evil workers!"