The Ground Of The Church

Gubei · 12-20-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toledo

Yup, I'm gone. I aced calculus, but I can't follow this. Math is one thing; english is another. All the one's and two's and A's and B's are more than confusing.

The thought may be there, but as written, it is visible only as through a glass darkly...

Try again?

Sorry Toledo. I'm not a native English speaker. I know my English is not so good. I will try once again. Any comments are okay

The ground of locality includes nomenclature of the church, fixing the boundary of a church, appointing the leadership in that church. These are “practices” that should be practiced physically visibly. But the underlying principle of those practices should be based on the Bible (just as head covering of sisters is a practice with the principle of submission.), and the principle of the ground of locality is in phase 1 - accepting every saint in the Lord – the oneness. I believe that if phase 1 is really practiced in Pittsburgh, there will only one church under one leadership. This is phase 2.

Phase 1 is essential in our Christian life because without it, our fellowship through which we are supplying each other in the Lord as described in the Bible will be hindered.

However, phase 2 is not essential in our Christian life because without it, we can fellowship with other Christians in Pittsburgh. That’s why I do not insist one-set of elders in a city. However, because one-set of elders in a city is revealed in the Bible, just as head covering is, I say phase 2 was practiced in the early churches and we’d better follow those examples. And I believe the descriptive examples in the Bible are actually prescriptive because all the examples are really consistent in showing us how Paul and Apostles practiced the matter. In short, one-set of elders in a city is prescriptive in the Bible, but not essential in our Christian life.

Unfortunately, Igzy and OBW – my loving fellow Christians – not only assumed that I INSISTed one-set of elders but also misrepresented the ground of locality as “insisting one-set of elders in a city.” Furthermore, by presenting some analogies with the problem of causality, they are trying to give readers the impression that the ground of locality has its own problems. So, it is clear that they are committing the Type 2 error. As you know, some leaders in the local churches are in the Type 1 error.

In conclusion, I’m not sure whether the saints in Pittsburgh, especially those who are in the leadership position, really accept each other. If that’s the case, phase 2 is too far away to be practiced. So, my advice to Peter is to follow the leading of the Lord for now with the recognition that ORIGINALLY one-set of elders in Pittsburgh is right, just as there is one administration of mayor and officials in Pittsburgh. This is the end image of what I have said. This end image is really similar to Igzy’s model. But approach is quite different.

Gubei

Gubei · 12-20-2008, 11:45 PM

As contrary to Igzy and OBW's repeated position that the ground of locality is not supported in the Bible and Christians are free to hop from church to church, I once again clarify my position as follows;

1. Paul praised the saints who followed his practices.
1Cor 11 shows us that how Paul was happy when he saw Corinthians follow his practice. He was happy because they held the teachings, just as Paul passed them on to Corinthians.

(1Cor 11:1) 『[1] Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. [2] I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

Paul went to say that there was no other practice.

[16] If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

Appointing elders in every city is not just practice but also Paul's charge.

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;

2. The freedom that we have in Christ Jesus in Gal 2:4 is about keeping the Mosaic Law. I do not believe we can apply Gal 2:4 to "free hopping from church to church."
Gal 2:4 and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: (Darby)

"To spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus - In the practice of the Christian religion. The liberty referred to was, doubtless, the liberty from the painful, expensive, and onerous rites of the Jewish religion; see Gal_5:1. Their object in spying out the liberty which Paul and others had, was, undoubtedly, to be witnesses of the fact that they did not observe the special rites of the Mosaic system; to make report of it; to insist upon their complying with those customs, and thus to secure the imposition of those rites on the Gentile converts. Their first object was to satisfy themselves of the fact that Paul did not insist on the observance of their customs; and then to secure, by the authority of the apostles, an injunction or order that Titus should be circumcised, and that Paul and the converts made under his ministry should be required to comply with those laws. (Barns)"

"2. That in his practice he firmly adhered to the doctrine which he had preached. Paul was a man of resolution, and would adhere to his principles; and therefore, though he had Titus with him, who was a Greek, yet he would not suffer him to be circumcised, because he would not betray the doctrine of Christ, as he had preached it to the Gentiles. It does not appear that the apostles at all insisted upon this; for, though they connived at the use of circumcision among the Jewish converts, yet they were not for imposing it upon the Gentiles. But there were others who did, whom the apostle here calls false brethren, and concerning whom he informs us that they were unawares brought in, that is, into the church, or into their company, and that they came only to spy out their liberty which they had in Christ Jesus, or to see whether Paul would stand up in defence of that freedom from the ceremonial law which he had taught as the doctrine of the gospel, and represented as the privilege of those who embraced the Christian religion. Their design herein was to bring them into bondage, which they would have effected could they have gained the point they aimed at; for, had they prevailed with Paul and the other apostles to have circumcised Titus, they would easily have imposed circumcision upon other Gentiles, and so have brought them under the bondage of the law of Moses. But Paul, seeing their design, would by no means yield to them; he would not give place by subjection, no, not for an hour, not in this one single instance; and the reason of it was that the truth of the gospel might continue with them - that the Gentile Christians, and particularly the Galatians, might have it preserved to them pure and entire, and not corrupted with the mixtures of Judaism, as it would have been had he yielded in this matter. Circumcision was at that time a thing indifferent, and what in some cases might be complied with without sin; and accordingly we find even Paul himself sometimes giving way to it, as in the case of Timothy, Act_16:3. But when it is insisted on as necessary, and his consenting to it, though only in a single instance, is likely to be improved as giving countenance to such an imposition, he has too great a concern for the purity and liberty of the gospel, to submit to it; he would not yield to those who were for the Mosaic rites and ceremonies, but would stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, which conduct of his may give us occasion to observe that what under some circumstances may lawfully be complied with, yet, when that cannot be done without betraying the truth, or giving up the liberty, of the gospel, it ought to be refused. (Henry)"

3. Paul did not say that saints can freely hop to be under the other elders. Contrarily, Paul is advising us to try to have one mind and settle down disputes related to an elder.
Phi 4:2 I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord. (ASV)

(1Tim 5:19) 『Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.』(KJV)

"That they be of the same mind - That they be united, or reconciled. Whether the difference related to doctrine, or to something else, we cannot determine from this phrase. The language is such as would properly relate to any difference.
In the Lord - In their Christian walk and plans. They were doubtless professing Christians, and the apostle exhorts them to make the Lord the great object of their affections, and in their regard for him, to bury all their petty differences and animosities. (Barns)"

Gubei

12-20-2008, 11:45 PM	#2
Gubei Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 145	Interim writing As contrary to Igzy and OBW's repeated position that the ground of locality is not supported in the Bible and Christians are free to hop from church to church, I once again clarify my position as follows; 1. Paul praised the saints who followed his practices. 1Cor 11 shows us that how Paul was happy when he saw Corinthians follow his practice. He was happy because they held the teachings, just as Paul passed them on to Corinthians. (1Cor 11:1) 『[1] Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. [2] I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you. Paul went to say that there was no other practice. [16] If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God. Appointing elders in every city is not just practice but also Paul's charge. Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge; 2. The freedom that we have in Christ Jesus in Gal 2:4 is about keeping the Mosaic Law. I do not believe we can apply Gal 2:4 to "free hopping from church to church." Gal 2:4 and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: (Darby) "To spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus - In the practice of the Christian religion. The liberty referred to was, doubtless, the liberty from the painful, expensive, and onerous rites of the Jewish religion; see Gal_5:1. Their object in spying out the liberty which Paul and others had, was, undoubtedly, to be witnesses of the fact that they did not observe the special rites of the Mosaic system; to make report of it; to insist upon their complying with those customs, and thus to secure the imposition of those rites on the Gentile converts. Their first object was to satisfy themselves of the fact that Paul did not insist on the observance of their customs; and then to secure, by the authority of the apostles, an injunction or order that Titus should be circumcised, and that Paul and the converts made under his ministry should be required to comply with those laws. (Barns)" "2. That in his practice he firmly adhered to the doctrine which he had preached. Paul was a man of resolution, and would adhere to his principles; and therefore, though he had Titus with him, who was a Greek, yet he would not suffer him to be circumcised, because he would not betray the doctrine of Christ, as he had preached it to the Gentiles. It does not appear that the apostles at all insisted upon this; for, though they connived at the use of circumcision among the Jewish converts, yet they were not for imposing it upon the Gentiles. But there were others who did, whom the apostle here calls false brethren, and concerning whom he informs us that they were unawares brought in, that is, into the church, or into their company, and that they came only to spy out their liberty which they had in Christ Jesus, or to see whether Paul would stand up in defence of that freedom from the ceremonial law which he had taught as the doctrine of the gospel, and represented as the privilege of those who embraced the Christian religion. Their design herein was to bring them into bondage, which they would have effected could they have gained the point they aimed at; for, had they prevailed with Paul and the other apostles to have circumcised Titus, they would easily have imposed circumcision upon other Gentiles, and so have brought them under the bondage of the law of Moses. But Paul, seeing their design, would by no means yield to them; he would not give place by subjection, no, not for an hour, not in this one single instance; and the reason of it was that the truth of the gospel might continue with them - that the Gentile Christians, and particularly the Galatians, might have it preserved to them pure and entire, and not corrupted with the mixtures of Judaism, as it would have been had he yielded in this matter. Circumcision was at that time a thing indifferent, and what in some cases might be complied with without sin; and accordingly we find even Paul himself sometimes giving way to it, as in the case of Timothy, Act_16:3. But when it is insisted on as necessary, and his consenting to it, though only in a single instance, is likely to be improved as giving countenance to such an imposition, he has too great a concern for the purity and liberty of the gospel, to submit to it; he would not yield to those who were for the Mosaic rites and ceremonies, but would stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, which conduct of his may give us occasion to observe that what under some circumstances may lawfully be complied with, yet, when that cannot be done without betraying the truth, or giving up the liberty, of the gospel, it ought to be refused. (Henry)" 3. Paul did not say that saints can freely hop to be under the other elders. Contrarily, Paul is advising us to try to have one mind and settle down disputes related to an elder. Phi 4:2 I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord. (ASV) (1Tim 5:19) 『Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.』(KJV) "That they be of the same mind - That they be united, or reconciled. Whether the difference related to doctrine, or to something else, we cannot determine from this phrase. The language is such as would properly relate to any difference. In the Lord - In their Christian walk and plans. They were doubtless professing Christians, and the apostle exhorts them to make the Lord the great object of their affections, and in their regard for him, to bury all their petty differences and animosities. (Barns)" Gubei __________________ Less than the least