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[testallthings]

I have been accused by awareness and zeek to not have quoted the Lord Jesus in one of my last post (like this was a crime). Instead I quoted from Paul and John. In my post number 40 I showed how the Lord Jesus was a friend of sinners and how He made a difference between the sinners of the world and those who sin in the church. I quoted the Lord Jesus' words from Mat. 9:9-13; Luke 5:27-32 and Mk. 2:14-17. I quoted from 1 Cor. 5:9-13 (from Paul) and finally, again the Lord Jesus' words in Mat. 18:17.
(To this verse zeek said, “It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15.
What he meant by the “historical Jesus” raised some doubts in me, but I didn't asked him for an explanation. At this point I would like to ask zeek, do you believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. If those in Mat. 18:17 are not the words of the Lord Jesus whose words are they?)
Then, in a following post I continued on the same topic quoting from Paul and John.

Awareness responded with such a comment:

"Paul's got more books in the New Testament than Jesus, even if we discount the disputed books.
So the church ended up becoming more Paul than Jesus. And so has lost track of Jesus."

Now, if you know of books that the Lord Jesus wrote, would you like to share them with us? The Lord Jesus wrote no books and yet all the books are His (or the word of God).

__________________________________________________ ______________________
In my posts I have quoted or given reference to:

Gen. 37:5 Deut. 24:16 Ez. 18:20 Gen. 9:21 2Sam. 12:9 Ps. 51 Pro. 20:8 Pro. 14:35 Pro. 20:26 Mat. 8:5-13 Mat. 9:2-7 Mat. 9:9-13 Mat. 18:17 Mat. 19:28 Mat. 26:75 Mk. 2:14-17 Luke 5:27-32 Luke 19:11-27 Luke 12:13-14 John 6:15 John 2:1-2 John 12:3-8 John 18:23 John 18:37 John 19:14-15 Acts 4 Acts 7:23-25, 30, 35 Acts 13:13-14 1 Cor. 5:9-13 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Gal. 5:19-21 Eph. 5:1-7 Col. 3:1-2 Rev. 11:15-17 Rev. 19:10, 15-16 Rev. 22:8-9

That's about 36 references from 16 books of the Bible of which 3 by Paul.

I quoted Tertullian and Origen and Obama (once), too.

__________________________________________________ ________
Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)

He mentioned Antonin Scalia, Obama (4 times) and a quote from

Brooke Allen. Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers (Kindle Locations 802-805). Kindle Edition.


If you are really concerned about the Lord Jesus why do you quote Him so rarely? And why in your signature you have a quote from Jimi Hendrix and not from the Lord Jesus?
Would you like to explain where did you get your last quote and what it means? It sounds like that there is no need to look for the “historical Jesus” (the same words zeek used commenting on Mat. 18:17) because He never existed, like the false gods of old?)

"Job 25:6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
No amount of intellect or education can grant one immunity where matters of the heart and faith are concerned.
So watch out! There's a serpent in every paradise!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Heroes fail, when you get to know them ... then they fall, just like the gods of old. Why else quest for the historical Jesus?"
__________________________________________________ _______
Now let's see what zeek quoted:

“Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”


And Deut.19:15 to disprove that the words in Matthew 18:17 probably were not uttered by the “historical Jesus”.

Then he mentioned
The first amendment to the US Constitution, Jefferson, right wing Christians, Barack Obama, Ron and Rand Paul.

Not much about the Lord Jesus.


__________________________________________________ ________

OBW,

I don't think Paul is the source. The source is God Himself who spoke in the Son.
The word of the Lord Jesus are the words of God, and so were those of the apostles.

Joh 12:49 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 7:16 Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.

He also said,


Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you.


If we believe His words then we know that the words of Peter, James, John, Jude and Paul are the word of God.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.


You mentioned the importance of doing. It is a very important issue, but before that we should know who we are. Are we Jews? Are we Gentiles? I am a Gentile, and for such as me God prepared and apostle (as He appointed the 12 to send them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), Paul.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)


1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

If he was the apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, and he was, he knew exactly how to teach and what to teach to us Gentiles.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by testallthings

I have been accused by awareness and zeek to not have quoted the Lord Jesus in one of my last post (like this was a crime). Instead I quoted from Paul and John. In my post number 40 I showed how the Lord Jesus was a friend of sinners and how He made a difference between the sinners of the world and those who sin in the church.

I was referring only to post #44.

(To this verse zeek said, “It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15.
What he meant by the “historical Jesus” raised some doubts in me, but I didn't asked him for an explanation. At this point I would like to ask zeek, do you believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. If those in Mat. 18:17 are not the words of the Lord Jesus whose words are they?)

In John 10:24, the "Jews" accused Jesus of making them doubt. Jesus is the Word according to John 1:1. The Bible never makes the claim that it is the Word of God. How could it? It was written by a group of authors some of who were unaware of others who's writings would eventually become part of the canon.

Now I'm not certain who wrote the Gospel of Matthew but, as I understand it, it is merely a matter of tradition that it was written by Matthew. If you have better information on that, please, let me know.

Now let's see what zeek quoted...Deut.19:15 to disprove that the words in Matthew 18:17 probably were not uttered by the “historical Jesus”.

No, Deut. 19:15 I cited as the probable origin of the principle the author appropriates in Matthew 18:17. You know, the four Gospels never themselves make the claim that they are historically accurate in the modern sense like a news story claims to be. Why do people assume that they are? The short answer for many of us is that it was the indoctrination we received. If we are called on to back it up, we can't. But, maybe you are the exception. So, by all means, make your case for an historically accurate Bible and I'll read it happily.

If Bible stories are not historical they still may embody spiritual truth. We don't suppose that Jesus' parables are literally true and they require us to interpret them metaphorically, but yet convey deep truths. If other Bible stories are parables, that doesn't necessarily make them less meaningful, does it? Witness Lee used to give allegorical interpretations of what had been previously viewed by most fundamentalists as merely factual historical accounts. Whether you agree with his interpretation or not, he did demonstrate that the stories have meaning on another level than the mere historical-factual one.

Lee also drew our attention to passages in which Paul allegorized the Old Testament. For example, Lee notes that "an example of this insight is Paul's allegorizing Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Hagar, Abraham's concubine, as two covenants (Gal. 4:22-26). Apart from Paul's allegorizing of these women in Galatians 4, we could read Genesis again and again without seeing that Sarah and Hagar signify two covenants." (Life-Study of Acts, Chapter 64, Section 1) Allegorizing is a method of interpretation that is effective for interpreting Greek and other pagan mythologies despite the fact that few people take them to be literally historical. To what degree can Bible stories be demonstrated more accurate than Greek myths? Doesn't each story have to be evaluated in terms of what can be verified by independent historical documents? So, for example the claim that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified has some independent historical documentation although none that is contemporary with him whereas the story of him raising Lazarus from the dead has none even in the other Gospels.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by TAT

Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)

He mentioned Antonin Scalia, Obama (4 times) and a quote from

Brooke Allen. Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers (Kindle Locations 802-805). Kindle Edition.


If you are really concerned about the Lord Jesus why do you quote Him so rarely? And why in your signature you have a quote from Jimi Hendrix and not from the Lord Jesus?
Would you like to explain where did you get your last quote and what it means? It sounds like that there is no need to look for the “historical Jesus” (the same words zeek used commenting on Mat. 18:17) because He never existed, like the false gods of old?)

"Job 25:6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
No amount of intellect or education can grant one immunity where matters of the heart and faith are concerned.
So watch out! There's a serpent in every paradise!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Heroes fail, when you get to know them ... then they fall, just like the gods of old. Why else quest for the historical Jesus?"

Well, now we're getting somewhere ; a conversation. I'm only addressing what was directed at me.

One thing I can say bro Tat, is that, you are very astute. But I failed big time from the get-go with you. Cuz I failed to say:

Welcome to Alternative Views.

Where I am the moderator ... cuz I'm prooly the most alternative out here.

So let's have some fun. Is fun okay bro TAT?

Originally Posted by TAT

Let's see what awareness quoted:

1 Ti. 2:1-3 John 12:15 John 18:35-36 (he mentioned King David and the promise the Lord Jesus gave the 12 to sit on 12 thrones)

Then he quoted the Gospel of Thomas (it is from here that you get to know our Lord Jesus?)

Well your verse quotations sure got me beat. I'll have to work harder. I can cut and paste whole gospels ... and thrown in some Gospel of Thomas to boot. Can you beat that bro TAT?

But why do that? Y'all can read 'em on your own.

I quoted the GoT in support of bro zeek's question about the kingdom of heaven being within us. And by the way, there are early Christian and New Testament scholars that believe the GoT came up from the oral period, before any of the books of the NT were written; even Paul's, the earliest.

So the words of Jesus in the GoT may be more accurate than those found in the canon, written decades later, by God knows who, or whom. Only God knows.

In the end, we can not only not get at any of the autograph copy's of the books of the NT, we can't get at the autograph copy of any of the books Jesus wrote. So the actual historic Jesus is lost to us. Maybe if, all the books of him that, "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen," we'd have a better chance at getting at the historic Jesus. And all the Jesus scholars, seeking to find the historic Jesus, wouldn't be so frustrated.

To save everybody from having to read a bodacious long post, I won't comment on, Jimi Hendrix, that we're worms, the intellect, and the serpent in every paradise. They're in my tag line, and the purpose of them is to make people think. I see they've done a fine job of it. Amen Jesus. Thank you for people that think. Where would we be without 'em? Tho I can find no Bible verse to support that thinkers have any special access to the kingdom of heaven, I think it might be so. Jesus was obviously a thinker. That much we know about him.

Now let's get back to politics and the church.

Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell Jr. have endorsed Trump. Shouldn't Jerry Falwell Sr. be spinning in his grave? Wasn't it Cruz than announced his run at Liberty U.?

[awareness]

When I remarked that Bernie was pretty light on fear, Ohio responded:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yeah, at least they promise the forgiveness of sins and a future in heaven, and God can deliver on that promise!

I guess the gospel of fear works in both religion and politics.

But what about crazy? Lindsey Graham said: 'My party has gone 'bat[fecal matter] crazy.' I think this whole election has gone bat[fecal matter] crazy.

Especially that Evangelicals support Trump.

What say ye, all ya Evangelicals? Has your evangelical camp gone bat[fecal matter] crazy too?

Untohim, come and save the day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

When I remarked that Bernie was pretty light on fear, Ohio responded:

I guess the gospel of fear works in both religion and politics.

But what about crazy? Lindsey Graham said: 'My party has gone 'bat[fecal matter] crazy.' I think this whole election has gone bat[fecal matter] crazy.

Especially that Evangelicals support Trump.

What say ye, all ya Evangelicals? Has your evangelical camp gone bat[fecal matter] crazy too?

Untohim, come and save the day.

Why have all the liberal Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy for Sanders?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why have all the liberal Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy for Sanders?

I must be missing something. That evangelicals are going for Trump is easy enough to prove. But I haven't seen that liberal Christians are going for Sanders. Please educate me bro Ohio. To me that would be a sensational as evangelicals going for Trump. Have all Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy? Has the whole world?

[awareness]

Hey bro TAT. You didn't answer. Have you ever been in the local church that came out of Nee and Lee?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I must be missing something. That evangelicals are going for Trump is easy enough to prove. But I haven't seen that liberal Christians are going for Sanders. Please educate me bro Ohio. To me that would be a sensational as evangelicals going for Trump. Have all Christians gone bat[fecal matter] crazy? Has the whole world?

I dont know any Trump-crazy Christians, but I know some who are feeling the Bern, including some here.