Putting to Test the Recovery Version

[NewManLiving]

WL is not the only one. Others interpret the fig tree the same way. Don't forget that WL got much of his Biblical understanding from others, esp Brethren. So let's be careful about relegating everything to WL and then jumping to conclusions or erroneous epithets. The fig tree representing Israel is a common interpretation

[testallthings]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

WL is not the only one. Others interpret the fig tree the same way. Don't forget that WL got much of his Biblical understanding from others, esp Brethren. So let's be careful about relegating everything to WL and then jumping to conclusions or erroneous epithets. The fig tree representing Israel is a common interpretation

Of course W. Lee is not the only one, as he is not the only one to interpret the boat in Mat. 13 as the church, and so on. Getting help from others means you share in the responsibility of holding a possible wrong interpretation, too. So, although I respect many great teachers of the Bible (I am not worthy to sit at their feet), I cannot help but disagree with them on this point. Regarding the epithets, W. L. in his comments on the Gospel of Matthew had no sympathy for the Jews (I am sure he never cursed them, and he said something good about them in other books). Anyway, I am considering W. Lee's teaching in his footnotes in the Recovery Version, not the Brethren nor any other teachers, although I might quote from time to time from some of them. I am convinced that if we take the common interpretation that the fig tree represent Israel than we can do the same as what the Lord did: curse Israel! Ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree...
Because this is absurd, I must conclude that the Lord was not cursing the nation of Israel (even though the fig tree is a symbol of Israel, it doesn't mean that everytime a fig tree is mentioned in the Bible it represent Israel. Think about when the Lord Jesus saw Nathanael under the fig tree. Did He see Nathanael under the nation of Israel?)

From similar passages to me is it clear that the Lord is teaching the disciples about FAITH (and prayer?).




Mat 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.


Mat 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mar 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Mar 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.



1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

[NewManLiving]

You are quite the artist with your palette of verses. But I see faith here as a response to Peter's surprise. He was impressed that the tree had withered - probably unbelief, a common problem we all have. You recall that it was the next day, at least in one account. To me it does not really explain what the tree represents nor do any of your faith references have any direct relationship to the reason why the tree was cursed.

In my thinking I find it hard to believe that the Lord would curse a fig tree to teach Peter or anyone else a lesson in faith. Not that I'm totally convinced the tree means Israel. But I'm not convinced that it was expressly a lesson in faith. Also when you speak about something WL has said its best to explain that others see it that way as well. Then present your reasons why you feel differently. Otherwise it appears that you are biased against WL, even though many others who are unrelated to LSM hold the same views. It does not present a fair analysis.

[testallthings]

HIDE AND SEEK? ANYONE? (NO, NOT ME)

It is good after a little while, and quite a few posts, to review what was that prompt me to start this thread, Putting to test the Recovery Version (I should have said the footnotes of the Recovery Version). So I went back to reread my first post. It was to test the claims of the Recovery Version (starting from Matthew) stated in the “A BRIEF EXPLANATION". There we find these bold claims ,"The consummation of this understanding forms the basis of this translation and its footnotes. Hence, this translation and the accompanying footnotes could be called the 'crystallization' of the understanding of the divine revelation which the saints everywhere have attained to in the past two thousand years." A BRIEF EXPLANATION, The New testament, Recovery Version, revised edition 1991.

These are the claims. Does W. Lee provides the sources of his understanding? Does he quote extensively from the revelation of the saints they have attained in the past two thousand years? The quotes are so rare that it seems that he is more concealing than reveling his sources. Now, if he didn't want to acknowledge his reference study, why should I? It is sufficient for me to analyze what he wrote in the footnotes. I am not going to play hide and seek with W. Lee.

P.S.
There are those who like the game, and they are quite good at it. So I will quote just a little from their work on plagiarism in the Recovery Version.

“Despite being “all-inclusive” and based on “the best Christian writings,” explicit references to Bible expositors and Christian scholars are rare in the Recovery Version. Only fifty footnotes—one-half of one percent—refer to Bible scholars or authors of “the best Christian writings.” Everything else is presented as Witness Lee’s own composition.”
LSM’s PLAGIARISM—An Initial Inquiry, Nigel Tomes, Toronto, CANADA
December, 2008.

[testallthings]

NO, OUR LORD IS NOT HARD! AND HE DOES NOT DEMAND THAT WE WORK FOR HIM WITH NOTHING!

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)

There are three footnotes on this passage that are quite disturbing (in my opinion).

24.3 Apparently, the Lord is hard in His strictness. He demands that we use His gift to the fullest extent for His work, which requires our absoluteness.

24.4Apparently, the Lord's work always begins from zero. Reaping where He did not sow and gathering where He did not winnow, He seemingly demands that we work for Him with nothing. This should not be an excuse for the one-talented one to neglect the use of his gift; rather, this should force him to exercise his faith so that he can use his gift to the uttermost.

26.1The Lord admits that He is strict in what He demands of His slaves for His work. (The New Testament Recovery Version, Revised edition 1991)

W. Lee considers the words that the “wicked and slothful servant” speaks about his master as a true description of our Lord Jesus, because in verse 26 the Lord admits it. I have no words to describe my repulsion to this interpretation.
If we read the parallel passage in the Gospel of Luke 19:12-27 we discover a very important thing.

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The master judge the wicked servants according to his own words. (W. Lee maintains his point of view in that in Luke 19 for verses 20-26 he remands to his footnotes in Matt. 25:24-29)

Let me quote from two different commentators:

“Luk_19:22. Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee.—“A wonderfully happy argument ex concessis” (Lange). Comp. Mat_12:37. His own word is retorted upon the slothful one, and thereon a question is grounded, beginning with καὶ διὰ τί, which brings him into contradiction with himself. The lord does not concede to him that he is actually a hard man, but only refutes the shameless one on the position he had most arbitrarily taken.”(Langes Commentary on the OT/NT)

Luke 19:21
For I feared thee,.... Not with a right fear, with a fear of his goodness, who had bestowed such an excellent gift on him; for this would have taught him to have departed from evil, and have put him on doing his master's will, and making use of his gift to his glory: his fear was not of the right kind, and was ill grounded, as appears by what follows:

because thou art an austere man; cruel and uncompassionate to his servants, and hard to be pleased; than which nothing is more false, since it is evident, that Christ is compassionate both to the bodies and souls of men; is a merciful high priest, and is one that has compassion on the ignorant, and them that are out of the way, and cannot but be touched with the feeling of his people's infirmities; and is mild and gentle in his whole deportment, and in all his administrations:

thou takest up that thou layest not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow; suggesting, that he was covetous of that which did not belong to him, and withheld what was due to his servants, and rigorously exacted service that could not be performed; a most iniquitous charge, since none so liberal as he, giving gifts, grace and glory, freely; imposing no grievous commands on men; his yoke being easy, and his burden light; never sending a man to a warfare at his own charge; but always giving grace and strength proportionable to the service he calls to, and rewarding his servants in a most bountiful manner, infinitely beyond their deserts.
Luke 19:22
And he saith unto him,.... By way of reply to his vile slander, and unrighteous charge;

out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant; as he might be justly called: he was not only a wicked man, as all men are, even enemies by wicked works, and lie in wickedness; and a wicked professor of religion, as there be some; but a wicked minister, and that not on account of his bad principles, and sinful life and conversation, but for his sloth and negligence, and the wrong thoughts he entertained of, and the false charges he brought against Christ; and Christ turns his own argument upon him, and by his own words condemns him:

thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow; not allowing this, but supposing it was as he said; then Christ argues as follows, for his conviction. (John Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible)


Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (KJV)

[JJ]

Yes, these two other commentators bring a better understanding, that is more consistent with truth and our Lord Jesus' and God's heart. Witness Lee did use the word "apparently", but as you pointed out, he went on to agree with the one talented members' errant accusations of the Lord.

[testallthings]

MONSTROUS INTERPRETATION

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour;
Mat 27:46 but about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Darby)

1. Footnote 2 of verse 46 says, “God forsook Christ on the cross because He took the place of sinners (1 Pet. 3:18) — He bore our sins (1 Pet. 2:24; Isa. 53:6) and was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21).” (The New Testament Recovery Version, Revised edition 1991, published by Living Stream Ministry, Aneheim, California)

I believe many are familiar with the teaching that the Lord Jesus became our substitute on the cross and, even as a footnote on verse 45 affirms, that was in the last three hours that He bore our sins. It seems that there isn't anything wrong with this teaching, and actually I agree with it. The problem starts when we look at the references, especially 2 Cor. 5:21 and its relative footnote:

Footnote 2 on verse 21 says, “Sin came from Satan, who rebelled against God (Isa. 14:12-14). This sin, which came out of the evil one, entered into man (Rom. 5:12) and made man not only a sinner but sin itself under God's judgment. Hence, when Christ became a man in the flesh (John 1:14), He was made sin (not sinful) on our behalf to be judged by God (Rom. 8:3) that we might become God's righteousness in Him.” (The New Testament Recovery Version, Revised edition 1991, published by Living Stream Ministry, Aneheim, California)

There are many things here that deserve a detailed study. For example, sin can be translated sin offering. This will be more appropriate, but I don't want to pursue this argument. What I am interested in, at the moment is to compare what W. Lee says about when Christ was made sin. In Mat. He says that He was made sin on the cross, and he points to 2 Cor. 5:21. Then commenting on 2 Cor. 5:21, he says that He was made sin when He became a man, that is in His incarnation. W. Lee is assuming that flesh and sin are synonyms.

“In verse 21 Paul says that Christ was made sin on our behalf so that we might become God's righteousness in Him. Sin here is actually synonymous with the flesh. John 1:14 says that Christ as the Word became flesh. Second Corinthians 5:21 says that He was made sin. According to Romans 8:3, God sent His Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin. Thus, sin and the flesh are synonyms.” (W. Lee, Life-Study of 2 Corinthians, Chapter 37, Section 3) http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchM...?id=2801FFE2C8


“When we put John 1:14 together with 2 Corinthians 5:21, we see that when Christ became flesh, He was made sin. In the sight of God we, as fallen flesh, are actually sin. We are not only sinful and are not only sinners—we are sin itself. Because Christ became flesh, in this sense He was made sin on our behalf.”
(W. Lee, Life-Study of 2 Corinthians, Chapter 14, Section 4) http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchM...?id=2802F6EECA

Synonyms? I think it takes a lot more to prove that two terms are synonyms. But let's consider them (for an instant) as synonyms. The first aberrant corollary, from this explanations, if we compare the two footnotes in question is, Christ was made flesh (sin) on the cross, according to the footnote in Mat. 27:46, but according to the footnote in 2 Cor. 5:21 he was made flesh (sin) in incarnation. Why do we have to put John 1:14 with 2 Cor. 5:21? What do they have in common?
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth;

2Co 5:21 Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that *we* might become God's righteousness in him.

Even if we consider became and made as loose synonyms, in John it is clear that the subject is incarnation. What then is the subject of 2 Cor. 5:21? Is it incarnation, too? Let's see. Here is the context:


2Co 5:14 For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised.

2Co 5:16 So that *we* henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer.
2Co 5:17 So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
2Co 5:18 and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that *we* might become God's righteousness in him.

Paul specifically mention Christ's death in verses 14 and 15. In verse 18 he says that God has reconciled all things by Jesus Christ. Certainly this couldn't happen at the incarnation but at the crucifixion. It is than quite odd to conclude that verse 21 speaks of Christ's incarnation. I conclude, with the words of J.N. Darby,

Note here the monstrous interpretation which I had heretofore supposed it impossible for any to hold, that "him who knew no sin" means Jesus in His divinity; and "made sin" the incarnation, "that holy thing," not the cross and atonement then.

STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Union in Incarnation, the root error of modern theology. http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/29006E.html
(This article is a must-read, IMHO)