How Much To Throw Out?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have no quarrel with those who do not consider Witness Lee or his ministry in the same way i do. Go in peace. 1 Corinthians 9:2

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus. Initially the Local Church spread through the USA, based on the idea that all Christians were one, in the same faith, same Spirit, same Christ and Lord, same God and Father. Therefore all Christians in any "locality" or geographical area could stand together as the one church, fellowship, assembly, or testimony.

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age", and all who couldn't "get in line", as Witness Lee's predecessor Watchman Nee had made it clear a half-century before, were shed from the system. "Go in peace." Or as some put it, "The Recovery is not for everyone". Wait - I thought the central premise that it WAS for everyone? Oh, the old Bait and Switch.

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles. Surely such ones will rise up, and lead many astray. And surely the Body should identify them for what they are.

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The "go in peace" here reminds me of "be warmed and filled" of James 2:14: both phrases seem benign and innocuous, yet they conceal a spiritual virus..

I had to chuckle at this one, but pointed indeed. (Btw, James 2.16)

Originally Posted by aron

But this "one church" was a trojan horse for the "one ministry of the age."

Say it isn't so!

How unfortunate that the repeated facts of history support this!

Originally Posted by aron

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, including 9:2, where does he claim the one ministry of the age? He says he is "an" apostle, not "the" apostle. In fact he derides the supposedly super-apostles.

Excellent points, which none of us loyal to the movement ever considered.

Originally Posted by aron

In the Local Church, many gave years and even decades to build up the church but were eventually given two options: Either you're with us and our abject subjection to centralized leadership, or you're out. Go in peace, i.e. go away quietly. Thanks for all your help, now beat it.

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This was exactly my case in 2005. I had given 30 of my best years to the Recovery, thru good times and bad, and two migrations. But we were all given the choice to "stand for the truth" with the Blendeds, or "stand for the truth" with Titus Chu.

Some were then more upset with me for posting on the forum than for leaving. For years we were instructed, "if you leave, leave as a gentleman," which means keep your mouth shut and disappear. I decided to "stand for the truth" and report to others how we had gone off course, like the exclusive Brethren before us.

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Renee

I'm so sorry this had to happen. It sounds like the end of a bad marriage. "Leave as a gentleman" is manipulative, as if on some level, they knew there was a lot to hide.

Manipulation in the LC was so rampant and accepted, that even the more kind-hearted brothers would repeat what was inflicted on them without their even noticing it.

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

[UntoHim]

Unregistered Guest,

Thanks for your heartfelt and lucid response.

Firstly, let me say that I have been where you're at. I have been in your shoes. I once felt the same way about Lee and Nee. I still do honor their service to the Lord and his Gospel. They are now both with the Lord, and their ultimate honor, glory and reward is in the hands of the One they attempted to serve.

I noticed you use the terms "experiences", "more real" greatly enhanced" when speaking of the ministries of Lee and Nee. These are all subjective things which can be highly influenced by our un-renewed minds and our fickle heart and emotions. Thankfully, God has provided us with at least two checks and balances for our spiritual well-being, and for the safety and admonition of the Body of Christ.

The first check and balance is, of course, the Holy Scriptures. Every experience, or even understanding, we have, no matter how "real" or "enhanced", MUST be compared and contrasted with what is plainly set before us in the Word of God. There is an abject danger we all face when any teaching or practice becomes untethered from the black and white holy writ of the Bible, and from "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints". (Jude 1:3) There is little doubt that Witness Lee felt he was qualified to establish teachings and practices which were, at best, untethered from the clear teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, and at worse were patently unbiblical, and arguably heretical. This forum is replete with innumerable examples which run from the "at best" all the way to the "at worse".

The second check and balance was clearly enunciated by Igzy:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The relationships in the LCM are fine. But they are diminished by the fact that LCMers have very little relationship with those outside the movement. This is lead's me to believe the internal LCM relationships are based more on common culture than a common relationship with God.

I must say that Igzy was being quite generous with his "very little relationship with those outside the movement". Actually, "very little" would be a good start and vast improvement. In all fairness, at least Local Church members are no longer marching outside of Moody Bible Institute shouting "down with Christianity!" and other such outlandish slogans. I haven't heard of any lawsuit being filed (against Christians outside or inside of the movement) in quite some years. Hope springs eternal!

Seriously though, Iqzy says just about all that I would want to say regarding this matter of being balanced by the Body of Christ. What Local Churchers don't understand, much less appreciate, is that we all don't have to agree on every teaching and practice to have a relationship with other members of the Body, with other churches, church groups or ministries.

There is a song sung in the Local Church, probably written by, or at least influenced by, the teachings of Witness Lee, which opens with this:
Oh, the church of Christ is glorious, and we are part of it—
We’re so happy that the Lord has made us one!
There’s a Body in the universe and we belong to it—
Hallelujah, for the Lord has made us one!

Yes, my dear Local Church brothers and sisters, the Lord has made us one! So why do you continue to resist and even fight against what the Lord has done? Yes, the Body of Christ is divided...but only by those who would do the dividing. Frankly, many of the teachings and practices of the Local Church are part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. But brothers and sisters like our friend, Unregistered Guest, can be part of the solution, at least here on this forum. And this is one of the main reasons this little popcorn stand will remain open and available for the foreseeable future.

-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically.

The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

I agree that the ministry of Nee and Lee presents and understands the Old and New Testaments holistically, and that this can be amenable to the seeking person. I was also encouraged and supplied by the "one stop shopping" of the ministry. All problems of life could usually be reduced to "eating Jesus is the way" and "glorious church life, feasting in one accord" etc etc. Just sing the chorus 20 times and you're all set. In the heavenlies - no problems.

The entire ministry, which spans the entire Bible, can be summed up in a catchphrase that even the weakest and dullest among us could declare in a Tuesday night home meeting, or Saturday morning Bible study meeting. And if you came in and declared the catchphrase, all those smiling faces would beam back at you - "love bombing" and warm fuzzies all around.

My first indication that something was amiss was when the FTTA trainers told us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor, the aged, the weak and the sick, in other words don't spend any time or effort or attention to those who can't repay you in this age. Instead, go after the good building materials, which was explicitly spelled out - Caucasian college students. That was the prize, of the high calling of Christ Jesus, to come into the LC and go onto the college campus, and snare a Caucasian student for the building up of the Body of Christ and the Consummation of the New Jerusalem.

Etc. More and more I began to see disconnect between the holistic world of Lee, and the world of the Bible, of common sense, of Christian experience and testimony (our supposed "goodly heritage"), and our own still small voice i.e. our conscience. Just go with the flow, keep your mouth shut except to say, "Amen, praise the Lord!" Leadership is always right even when its wrong. As RG put it so succinctly, "We do what we are told". That's the holistic world of Lee, reduced to its primal essence.

On the other hand, I don't hold it against those who stay on the space ship. I'm qualified to judge no one. Some may feel, Hey, this is the best I can do, and decide to stay put. Others, however, feel, Hey, I can do better than this, and move on. Certainly I was in the latter camp.

Today sometimes I struggle with the scholars who lose sight of the forest for the trees. They can parse out one clause from Greek or Hebrew, but eventually you feel it has nothing to do with the larger narrative. I do appreciate Lee and Nee for continually trying to bring it all back full circle; I was probably helped and influenced by their work, in this regard.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

It is good that you experienced Christ, but you must realize that countless others have experienced Christ in the RCC, EOC, and several Protestant groups. What makes your experience more valid than the others?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Untohim,

Experiences of Christ were more frequent, more real, and varied when I came into contact with the ministry of witness lee and watchman nee. My understanding of the Bible was greatly enhanced because Old and New Testaments were presented and understood holistically. The care and encouragement from the brothers and sisters in that ministry created a multiplier effect (grace upon grace) of experience and enlightenment under the daily guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Lord had allowed me to search in many places (fundamentalism, free groups, pentecostalism) and when the time was right brought me into an abundant good land. Therefore, Igzy, I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

Hi,

I'm not sure why you address me directly here, but I assume it is because of what I said about the commonality of LCMers being their culture, rather than Christ.

Let me clarify. I did not mean to say that LCMers do not have Christ in common, I said that the bond that binds them together is not Christ, but rather LCM culture. For if it were Christ, they would have no problem freely having fellowship with Christians not in the LCM. In fact, they would actively seek this fellowship. But they do not. The isolationism of the LCM exposes a deep issue.

God and Christ are bigger than the LCM. They are bigger than "the Recovery." They are bigger than Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. They are bigger than any group, movement or denomination. None of us have a monopoly on Him. I'm not sure how long you've been in the LCM, but your response seems to indicate you've come to believe the myth that the LCM is so good that you don't even need the rest of the Body of Christ. This is a severe deception, contrary to the truth of God revealed in his word (1 Cor 12:20-25). The LCM does not honor the members it thinks are weaker. This is a direct violation of the word.

As long as the LCM continues to avoid contact with the majority of the Body of Christ, and maintains the attitude that they are somehow superior to the rest of the Body to the point of brushing them aside and discounting them, they are simply not producing the fruit the genuine experience of Christ should produce. There is something fundamentally wrong. So one must naturally conclude that their oneness is not Christ, but Witness Lee and Local Church culture.

This is something you should seriously consider. But you will probably resist doing so. Now, why would you tend to resist in this way? I would say most likely because of the pressure of your culture to do so, rather than any pressure or leading from God. Please ponder that.

I would never say God did not lead you to the LCM. But I would say that as long as you silently ignore the severe issues in the movement and pretend they do not exist, it's possible you are not doing what he led you there to do.

Thanks for posting.

Hi HERn,

"What makes your experience more valid than the others? "

I do not believe that.


Hi Igzy,

"I'm not sure why you address me directly here, ...."

Because you said "You can't say the experiences of life were richer unless you've experienced every other alternative. "

I did not need to experience every other alternative to know my experiences prior to coming into the Lords' Recovery were not as rich as those I experienced in the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. So I knew my journey found its destination and I was compelled by the Lord to stay in this place, at this time, and with these people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As long as the LCM continues to avoid contact with the majority of the Body of Christ, and maintains the attitude that they are somehow superior to the rest of the Body to the point of brushing them aside and discounting them, they are simply not producing the fruit the genuine experience of Christ should produce. There is something fundamentally wrong. So one must naturally conclude that their oneness is not Christ, but Witness Lee and Local Church culture.

That's a sectarian mindset. Making receiving in the local churches narrower than Christ's receiving (as seen in Romans 15:7). Doubt me? When a brother scrutinizes LC leadership, he is no longer welcome to meet.
I know one of the talking points is the ground of the church. Okay, what exactly is defined as the ground? Is it Jesus Christ or is it the ministries of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee? If it's Jesus Christ, we can set aside earthly ministries such as Lee, Nee, etc aside and take the Bible as our only standard for basis of fellowship.