What It's Really All About

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry bro, but I'm not so optimistic as you. I see most of that money not going to the poor, but to build some preacher's empire, supposedly "for the gospel of God."

There are plenty of trustworthy organizations. Statistics of where money goes are available. Besides, if we used that excuse no one would give. That's part of the problem and part of what Will Davis calls "the spirit of poverty." Did you watch the video?

Davis addresses the issue of not trusting a church enough to tithe to it. He said if you don't trust them then you probably should find another church. We ought to be able to find somebody to give to, and God commands us to give. So I don't think not trusting recipients as an excuse for not giving at all is going to wash with Him ultimately. "Cast your bread upon the waters." "God loves a cheerful giver."

Although I think we all ought to learn to give as the Bible commands, that isn't the main reason for this thread. The main reason is to discuss what is our legitimate involvement in and with the world. The LCM's involvement is so "spiritual" and theoretical that they've pretty much excused themselves from any grass roots good works, even though Jesus performed plenty. My question is, what is legitimate? Beyond that, what does the Lord actually expect?

Is the sheep and goats parable about just the end times and how those non-believers remaining on the earth treated believers, as Lee taught. Or is it a more general parable showing that true believers will have a heart to take care of their neighbors? It's worthy of discussion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There are plenty of trustworthy organizations. Statistics of where money goes are available. Besides, if we used that excuse no one would give. That's part of the problem and part of what Will Davis calls "the spirit of poverty." Did you watch the video?

Davis addresses the issue of not trusting a church enough to tithe to it. He said if you don't trust them then you probably should find another church. We ought to be able to find somebody to give to, and God commands us to give. So I don't think not trusting recipients as an excuse for not giving at all is going to wash with Him ultimately. "Cast your bread upon the waters." "God loves a cheerful giver."

Although I think we all ought to learn to give as the Bible commands, that isn't the main reason for this thread. The main reason is to discuss what is our legitimate involvement in and with the world. The LCM's involvement is so "spiritual" and theoretical that they've pretty much excused themselves from any grass roots good works, even though Jesus performed plenty. My question is, what is legitimate? Beyond that, what does the Lord actually expect?

Is the sheep and goats parable about just the end times and how those non-believers remaining on the earth treated believers, as Lee taught. Or is it a more general parable showing that true believers will have a heart to take care of their neighbors? It's worthy of discussion.

I did watch some of the video.

For 10 years in the LC (towards the end) I was church treasurer. Not at all my choice, but out of loyalty. We always had a category "needy saints," but almost never gave anything to "needy saints." What little we had to work with was always heavily taxed by Cleveland, basically taxation without representation. It was also required of us to send a monthly check to LSM's DCP for their legal expenses.

The next church we attended was worse about money. We were constantly hammered for tithes, gifts, offerings, missions, special needs, TV ministry, endless building funds, etc. I could no longer afford to be a Christian. We couldn't attend a prayer meeting without passing the basket. At one point they even passed out wristbands declaring, "There is no recession in the kingdom of God." It troubled me that Pastor's wife got a new Lexus, but who am I to criticize such a well-respected organization, that did so much good for the community.

I have known the tremendous joy in giving, yet it has been soured by corruption. Few Christian leaders "take forethought for things honorable."

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I did watch some of the video.

For 10 years in the LC (towards the end) I was church treasurer. Not at all my choice, but out of loyalty. We always had a category "needy saints," but almost never gave anything to "needy saints." What little we had to work with was always heavily taxed by Cleveland, basically taxation without representation. It was also required of us to send a monthly check to LSM's DCP for their legal expenses.

The next church we attended was worse about money. We were constantly hammered for tithes, gifts, offerings, missions, special needs, TV ministry, endless building funds, etc. I could no longer afford to be a Christian. We couldn't attend a prayer meeting without passing the basket. At one point they even passed out wristbands declaring, "There is no recession in the kingdom of God." It troubled me that Pastor's wife got a new Lexus, but who am I to criticize such a well-respected organization, that did so much good for the community.

I have known the tremendous joy in giving, yet it has been soured by corruption. Few Christian leaders "take forethought for things honorable."

I also watched some of the video. I think that, post-LC, I am very turned off by talk about "tithing," or anything I see as pressure to give financially. I understand the speaker's point and application, but it is hard for me to get past references like these. I consider modern evangelical teaching on tithing to be false doctrine--a form of legalism, and a total distortion of Old Testament practice. That's just my take on it.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I also watched some of the video. I think that, post-LC, I am very turned off by talk about "tithing," or anything I see as pressure to give financially. I understand the speaker's point and application, but it is hard for me to get past references like these. I consider modern evangelical teaching on tithing to be false doctrine--a form of legalism, and a total distortion of Old Testament practice. That's just my take on it.

How is it a "total distortion?"

If we cannot find some church or ministry we can trust with money, what are we really saying?

I understand being traumatized by bad experiences. I don't understand trying to formulate a theology that exempts us from giving.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

How is it a "total distortion?"

If we cannot find some church or ministry we can trust with money, what are we really saying?

I understand being traumatized by bad experiences. I don't understand trying to formulate a theology that exempts us from giving.

"Tithing" and "giving" are not the same. Tithing is an Old Testament practice of the law in which the Children of Israel offered 1/10 of their produce (crops) to meet the needs of the poor. Christian leaders have warped this Old Testament practice into an ordinance on believers (who are not under the law) to give 10% of their cash to 501(c)(3) corporations. If others choose to do this, it is their prerogative, but I do have a problem with this distortion being presented as Bible teaching.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

"Tithing" and "giving" are not the same. Tithing is an Old Testament practice of the law in which the Children of Israel offered 1/10 of their produce (crops) to meet the needs of the poor. Christian leaders have warped this Old Testament practice into an ordinance on believers (who are not under the law) to give 10% of their cash to 501(c)(3) corporations. If others choose to do this, it is their prerogative, but I do have a problem with this distortion being presented as Bible teaching.

I have serious doubts along this line also. The apostles had ample opportunity to bring tithing from the old into the new covenant, but they did not. In I Cor 16.2, Paul decidedly took a modified direction.

In the last 10 years or so, I have seen way too many Christians preach the old covenant as if it applied directly to the church. The new covenant is to the church, whereas the old covenant is for the church, for her learning, as Paul says in I Cor 10.11.

If believers desire to use the principle of tithing for their practice, I have no problem with that, only when preachers teach it as a legal practice, often due to their own self-serving desires. They usually say it is "equal sacrifice" for rich and poor, but with our current form of taxation, I feel it penalizes the working class. I also feel it penalizes those, like myself, who always felt that the donation of my heart and time to the Lord and the church superseded a monthly tax-deductible check.

Now if they really want to be legally accurate according to the old covenant, then I am willing to bring 10% from our garden. It only produces a few months of the year, however.

[Cal]

I see your point, Koinonia, except the part about it being a "total distortion." That's seems a bit of an overstatement. You are entitled to an opinion about New Testament tithing, but let's not overstate things.

But here's a question. If tithing is not a NT principle, then what should be the guidelines for giving? As it stands most Christians do not give anything to the churches they regularly attend nor to any ministries. Are you okay with this? There is no doubt that many churches and ministries cannot operate as well as they might because people do not give. How do you feel about this? Here's an interesting stat. American Christians gave more as a percentage of income during the Great Depression than they give now. Do we have less now? Are we poorer? No, we are the richest people in the history of the world. Yet we are giving less and less. See my point?

Let's leave out the argument that some churches/leaders are crooked. That's a dead-end argument that ties the Lord's hands if we use it as an excuse to not give. We are bound to be able to find some church/ministry we trust enough to give to, right? Why would you attend any church or follow any ministry you couldn't trust to give to?

The problem is some Christians never learn how to give. And it seems to me that arguing against tithing and arguing that Christian leaders are crooked just helps ensure that they never learn. These arguments certainly don't encourage Christians to give and they seem to encourage them not to.

You might say that it's up to each believer to decide how much to give. But that doesn't seem to be getting the job done. So where does the problem lie and how does it get addressed?

[Cal]

But, again, for some reason no one is picking up the discussion of how much the Church should influence the world and how this is done. What does it mean to be the salt of the earth?

Let's face it. The LCM attitude toward non-involvement in charities and good works "got us off the hook" from being involved in those. Our dirty little secret was our flesh liked that, just like our flesh liked not having to cooperate with any Christians not in the LCM. We could just sit in our ivory tower, read our HWMRs and look down our noses at everything else.

But do we not do more good works as ex-LCM members because of that influence, because we don't have time or money, or just because we are being disobedient?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I see your point, Koinonia, except the part about it being a "total distortion." That's seems a bit of an overstatement. You are entitled to an opinion about New Testament tithing, but let's not overstate things.

I believe I've already shown how it is a total distortion.

But here's a question. If tithing is not a NT principle, then what should be the guidelines for giving?

New Testament giving: "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7).

So, giving is a personal matter, a heart matter, between the believer and God.

As it stands most Christians do not give anything to the churches they regularly attend nor to any ministries. Are you okay with this? There is no doubt that many churches and ministries cannot operate as well as they might because people do not give. How do you feel about this? Here's an interesting stat. American Christians gave more as a percentage of income during the Great Depression than they give now. Do we have less now? Are we poorer? No, we are the richest people in the history of the world. Yet we are giving less and less. See my point?

Yes, I am okay with this. Because I do not equate giving to God with giving to religious organizations for buildings, maintenance, administration, salaries, programs, etc. Today's version of tithing looks less to me like giving and more to me like taxation on participation in a religious club.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

"Tithing" and "giving" are not the same. Tithing is an Old Testament practice of the law in which the Children of Israel offered 1/10 of their produce (crops) to meet the needs of the poor. Christian leaders have warped this Old Testament practice into an ordinance on believers (who are not under the law) to give 10% of their cash to 501(c)(3) corporations. If others choose to do this, it is their prerogative, but I do have a problem with this distortion being presented as Bible teaching.

Oh how they love to quote Malachi 3. If there are any verses in the Bible which every congregant can quote it is these:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me! But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In tithes and offerings. 9 You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house, and test me now in this," says Yahweh of Armies, "if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough for. 11 I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast its fruit before its time in the field," says Yahweh of Armies. 12 "All nations shall call you blessed, for you will be a delightful land," says Yahweh of Armies.

Today many preach that tithing is our covenant with God, and all our blessings result from it. So many Christians are now convinced that all spiritual blessing must ultimately be "bought and paid for" with their tithes and offerings. Hence, tithing, in the minds of far too many, supersedes faith, love, and hope, not to mention everything else in the new testament.