What It's Really All About

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I see your point, Koinonia, except the part about it being a "total distortion." That's seems a bit of an overstatement. You are entitled to an opinion about New Testament tithing, but let's not overstate things.

I believe I've already shown how it is a total distortion.

But here's a question. If tithing is not a NT principle, then what should be the guidelines for giving?

New Testament giving: "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7).

So, giving is a personal matter, a heart matter, between the believer and God.

As it stands most Christians do not give anything to the churches they regularly attend nor to any ministries. Are you okay with this? There is no doubt that many churches and ministries cannot operate as well as they might because people do not give. How do you feel about this? Here's an interesting stat. American Christians gave more as a percentage of income during the Great Depression than they give now. Do we have less now? Are we poorer? No, we are the richest people in the history of the world. Yet we are giving less and less. See my point?

Yes, I am okay with this. Because I do not equate giving to God with giving to religious organizations for buildings, maintenance, administration, salaries, programs, etc. Today's version of tithing looks less to me like giving and more to me like taxation on participation in a religious club.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Yes, I am okay with this. Because I do not equate giving to God with giving to religious organizations for buildings, maintenance, administration, salaries, programs, etc. Today's version of tithing looks less to me like giving and more to me like taxation on participation in a religious club.

What do you equate giving to God to, I mean financially? You won't give to any organizations that use buildings that might need maintenance? Or that pay anyone? What's left to give to? Homeless street preachers? Or does an angel come and pick your check up, and take it to heaven?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

What do you equate giving to God to, I mean financially?

"And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward" (Matthew 10:42).

"And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me'" (Matthew 25:40).

You won't give to any organizations that use buildings that might need maintenance? Or that pay anyone?

I did not say that. But that should not be called "tithing."

What's left to give to? Homeless street preachers? Or does an angel come and pick your check up, and take it to heaven?

Giving, like anything else in God's kingdom, should be a spiritual reality, not not an organizational practice, and not an obligation. If I choose to give a cash offering to someone in my community, or to a Christian worker in another area, or for a gospel campaign, etc., that is between me and God. But when pastors impose a false concept of "tithing" on members of their congregations, obligation to fork over 10% of their paychecks to them (their organization), that is a temple tax, and that has no New Testament basis.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Giving, like anything else in God's kingdom, should be a spiritual reality, not not an organizational practice, and not an obligation. If I choose to give a cash offering to someone in my community, or to a Christian worker in another area, or for a gospel campaign, etc., that is between me and God. But when pastors impose a false concept of "tithing" on members of their congregations, obligation to fork over 10% of their paychecks to them (their organization), that is a temple tax, and that has no New Testament basis.

I hate to interrupt an on-going conversation, but I have an old ex-LC friend who took this very discussion to the Bible and looked up every verse on the subject. His conclusion: Every mention of money in the New Testament says to "give to the poor," and the NT never mentions giving for buildings or organizations.

I realize this is an extreme view, which I don't particularly adhere to, but I have always thought that the time will come when Uncle Sam will take away our tax deduction, and that will provide the Lord much opportunity to burn away the chaff of "institutional" church.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I hate to interrupt an on-going conversation...

Ohio, your input (and anyone else's) is welcome.

...but I have an old ex-LC friend who took this very discussion to the Bible and looked up every verse on the subject. His conclusion: Every mention of money in the New Testament says to "give to the poor," and the NT never mentions giving for buildings or organizations.

This is true.

I realize this is an extreme view, which I don't particularly adhere to, but I have always thought that the time will come when Uncle Sam will take away our tax deduction, and that will provide the Lord much opportunity to burn away the chaff of "institutional" church.

I agree with this And I have a feeling that the current rankling over homosexual marriage in the USA will eventually result in government sanction to unsettle a lot of these institutional/financial arrangements of American churches, and that, I believe, will be a good thing.

[Cal]

I don't think that tithing is a legal obligation in the New Testament, or that pastors have the right to demand that 10% go to the home church. But I do think the OT principle of tithing does tell us that God expects some portion of our income be given away. Giving is a good thing. How much? I would never insist someone give 10%. But I think the OT establishes that 10% is not an unreasonable amount. At the very least it does that.

My point, really, is that we all should try to give something. I agree the precise amount is between someone and God. But so is how much someone prays and reads the Bible. I can't decide for someone how much they should do those things. But I can confidently say they should do them some.

Tithing aside, I still think if everyone gave what God was really leading them to give that there would be more given than is given now. I can't prove that. But I know my own heart that giving is one of the hardest things to do. Why? Because I love money too much and don't trust God enough.

And frankly I believe that without a tithing principle, even less would be given than is given now. Because stats shows it's the tithers, not those who give less, who actually support churches. Less than 20% of church members support almost 100% of church budgets. This includes churches that are quite reasonable in their salaries and expenses.

The church I attend, ACF, has modest budget expenses. We are not in debt and the leaders have promised no elaborate building projects. About 6 years ago we began to work toward giving away 50% of what is collected to other ministries around Austin and the world. We are now operating at this goal. There is no indication that any member who gives is suffering under financial burden because they are giving to the church. I don't see how this is anything but God's blessing.

Just today our pastor reported our giving $100,000 to a ministry which provides shelter and care for those attempting to escape sexual trafficking. If you have a problem with that you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If you have a problem with that you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

This is uncalled for.

I don't think that tithing is a legal obligation in the New Testament, or that pastors have the right to demand that 10% go to the home church. But I do think the OT principle of tithing does tell us that God expects some portion of our income be given away. Giving is a good thing. How much? I would never insist someone give 10%. But I think the OT establishes that 10% is not an unreasonable amount. At the very least it does that.

My point, really, is that we all should try to give something. I agree the precise amount is between someone and God. But so is how much someone prays and reads the Bible. I can't decide for someone how much they should do those things. But I can confidently say they should do them some.

Tithing aside, I still think if everyone gave what God was really leading them to give that there would be more given than is given now. I can't prove that. But I know my own heart that giving is one of the hardest things to do. Why? Because I love money too much and don't trust God enough.

And frankly I believe that without a tithing principle, even less would be given than is given now. Because stats shows it's the tithers, not those who give less, who actually support churches. Less than 20% of church members support almost 100% of church budgets. This includes churches that are quite reasonable in their salaries and expenses.

The church I attend, ACF, has modest budget expenses. We are not in debt and the leaders have promised no elaborate building projects. About 6 years ago we began to work toward giving away 50% of what is collected to other ministries around Austin and the world. We are now operating at this goal. There is no indication that any member who gives is suffering under financial burden because they are giving to the church. I don't see how this is anything but God's blessing.

Just today our pastor reported our giving $100,000 to a ministry which provides shelter and care for those attempting to escape sexual trafficking.

I agree with most everything else you wrote here--in principle. Again, this should not be taken (or imposed) as a legal matter.

When I was in the LC, I consistently gave more than 10% of my income each month to my local congregation, believing that this is what was expected of me. Our household income was/is quite modest (about half of the average household income for our area); so, this money made a big difference.

About six months before finally leaving the LC, I had already stopped this kind of "giving"--because I had begun to realize that this was not something that God expected of me. I was giving 10% of our income in order to finance all manner of religious programs determined at the discretion of the eldership--salaries of full-timers, building maintenance, mortgage payments, other construction projects, etc., etc.

In my view, we had made two fundamental errors-- 1) equating the Old Testament practice of bringing 10% of your crop harvest to the communal storehouse and funding the corporate affairs of modern-day religious institutions, and 2) equating "giving" to funding the corporate affairs of these same modern-day religious institutions.

I think that in considering all of this, we are also tiptoeing around a larger conversation of what "church" is.

Lastly, I am absolutely not opposed to charitable works and realize that I have lacked strongly in this area, especially having grown up in a group like the LC.