What It's Really All About

Koinonia · 08-23-2016, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Here's the basics, guys.

Jesus said the top two commandments were to love God and love people. He said all the law and prophets of the OT, in other words the whole thing God was trying to get us to understand and do, are summed up in those two commandments.

How do we love God? We put him first in everything and obey him.

How do we love our neighbor? That's what this thread is all about.

So let me ask you guys: How is love for your neighbor as yourself being realized in your lives?

Do you think if you are just being a spiritual Christian, reading your Bible, going to church and seeking God that you are fulfilling the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

How are you obeying the second commandment? Being "nice" to people? Well, that's better than nothing, but do you think that's really a fulfillment?

Do you think if you preach the gospel to someone, but don't offer them a drink of water if they need it that you are loving them?

I'm not condemning, I'm just asking questions that I've been asking myself. The theological outs you guys are throwing into the conversation don't do it for me anymore.

Igzy, the problem is that you are conflating unrelated things. I live in a low-income area. My neighbors have genuine difficulties--mental problems, addictions, poverty, etc. My wife and I, after having left the LC, now go out of our way to help these people (spiritually, psychologically, physically). Which is very different for us given our LC background. Yet, the Lord has shown us that this is real, and He has put this desire in our hearts. We genuinely want to counsel people on the front stoop, or help take care of people's children, or intervene when there are arguments, or offer meals, etc.

However, I have no desire to acquiesce to the expectations of religious leaders who believe that God expects me to "tithe" a certain percentage of my income to a 501(c)(3) corporation that will spend (at least) half of that money maintaining its own existence.

Again, if people wish to do that, it's really fine with me. But it should not be called "tithing," and it should not be imposed on people as "giving."

There really is a difference. Can you understand that?

Cal · 08-23-2016, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Igzy, the problem is that you are conflating unrelated things. I live in a low-income area. My neighbors have genuine difficulties--mental problems, addictions, poverty, etc. My wife and I, after having left the LC, now go out of our way to help these people (spiritually, psychologically, physically). Which is very different for us given our LC background. Yet, the Lord has shown us that this is real, and He has put this desire in our hearts. We genuinely want to counsel people on the front stoop, or help take care of people's children, or intervene when there are arguments, or offer meals, etc.

However, I have no desire to acquiesce to the expectations of religious leaders who believe that God expects me to "tithe" a certain percentage of my income to a 501(c)(3) corporation that will spend (at least) half of that money maintaining its own existence.

Again, if people wish to do that, it's really fine with me. But it should not be called "tithing," and it should not be imposed on people as "giving."

There really is a difference. Can you understand that?

Absolutely I understand. That's why I felt to note that ACF is an affluent church. It's not how much you give, it's the heart to help with what the Lord gave you.

I don't necessarily agree with your broad dismissal of tithing. But that's not important. What's important is we all learn to give as best we can and that we break free of the LCM arrogance that says we have no obligation to help outsiders, i.e. our neighbors.

HERn · 08-23-2016, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Igzy, the problem is that you are conflating unrelated things. I live in a low-income area. My neighbors have genuine difficulties--mental problems, addictions, poverty, etc. My wife and I, after having left the LC, now go out of our way to help these people (spiritually, psychologically, physically). Which is very different for us given our LC background. Yet, the Lord has shown us that this is real, and He has put this desire in our hearts. We genuinely want to counsel people on the front stoop, or help take care of people's children, or intervene when there are arguments, or offer meals, etc.

However, I have no desire to acquiesce to the expectations of religious leaders who believe that God expects me to "tithe" a certain percentage of my income to a 501(c)(3) corporation that will spend (at least) half of that money maintaining its own existence.

Again, if people wish to do that, it's really fine with me. But it should not be called "tithing," and it should not be imposed on people as "giving."

There really is a difference. Can you understand that?

You and your wife are that hands and feet of Christ in that neighborhood. I would like to grow into that.

testallthings · 08-24-2016, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by testallthings (Post 50156)

While there is strong evidence from the Bible to support the first point (giving), I do not see that God's plan for the Church is to solve the problems of the world. If the Church cannot solve its own problems, and there are so many, how could her help others?

Thanks for your thoughts. The point above seems to be similar to the idea that we should not help others until we've taken care of ourselves. This is the very reason some people never give. The poor widow gave out of her poverty, that's why the Lord praised her. So should we. My church, ACF, was in debt when we began moving toward giving away 50% of money collected in offerings to other ministries and needs. We paid off our debts when we hit around 25% or so. Now we give away 50% and are not in need.*

This is God's REAL economy.

No, the point above was pretty in line with what the pastor (Will Davis, Jr.) was trying to convey. The church does not give because has problems, like fears, mistrust in the ministries and so on. If we expect the church to give these problems must be solved (the church of course has many other problems). I watched the message once and listened to it a second time. The passage for his preaching was from 2 Cor 8.

verse 7 says, But as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all earnestness, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. (ASV)

A church that abounds in everything, faith, utterance, earnestness and love, needs just to be reminded to excel (that's W. D. word for the message) in giving also.

I noticed that a year ago you started a similar thread under the title

What God's Economy Means to Me Now

“When all is said and done, and the dross is burned away, it's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632CHpeHYZE

Love your neighbor as yourself.

It is better to give than to receive.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. “

It is obvious that you have a burning desire to see that we all put into practice what our Lord taught us. To this I say Amen, Amen, and Amen!

I love what you said, “What? Should we have yet another discussion about how the LCM leaders are bums or how Daystar was a ripoff? Haven't we beaten those dogs to a pulp? This board should be about healing, and speaking for myself, my LCM-tainted attitude toward giving needed healing. Probably some others do, too.”

“I'm not condemning, I'm just asking questions that I've been asking myself. The theological outs you guys are throwing into the conversation don't do it for me anymore.”

I just disagree with this quotation from the message you posted at the beginning of this thread,

"God's plan for solving the problems of the world has never been government. It has always been the Church."

"If every church member tithed the Church would collect another $165 billion a year, which would solve the world problems of hunger, thirst, literacy, mission funding... with $100 billion left over."

In the message the pastor asks, What if....? and goes on in mentioning what impact the Church could have if....

I would like to add another one. Let's suppose that in the U.S. (for example) there were 50 million Christians. What if each one of them could bring to the Lord 1 soul a year? In less than 3 years the U.S. would be a Christian country from the president to most humble citizen. The Church would not have a “mere” 165 billion a year but trillions.

Peace

_________________

08-24-2016, 04:46 AM

Isa. 58:6 "No, the kind of fast I want is that you stop oppressing those who work for you and treat them fairly and give them what they earn.

Isa. 58:7 I want you to share your food with the hungry and bring right into your own homes those who are helpless, poor, and destitute. Clothe those who are cold, and don't hide from relatives who need your help.

Isa. 58:8 "If you do these things, God will shed his own glorious light upon you. He will heal you; your godliness will lead you forward, goodness will be a shield before you, and the glory of the Lord will protect you from behind.

Isa. 58:9 Then, when you call, the Lord will answer. 'Yes, I am here,' he will quickly reply. All you need to do is to stop oppressing the weak and stop making false accusations and spreading vicious rumors!

Isa. 58:10 "Feed the hungry! Help those in trouble! Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day.

Isa. 58:11 And the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy you with all good things, and keep you healthy too; and you will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring.

08-24-2016, 01:23 AM	#4
testallthings Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 297	Re: What It's Really All About Originally Posted by testallthings (Post 50156) While there is strong evidence from the Bible to support the first point (giving), I do not see that God's plan for the Church is to solve the problems of the world. If the Church cannot solve its own problems, and there are so many, how could her help others? Thanks for your thoughts. The point above seems to be similar to the idea that we should not help others until we've taken care of ourselves. This is the very reason some people never give. The poor widow gave out of her poverty, that's why the Lord praised her. So should we. My church, ACF, was in debt when we began moving toward giving away 50% of money collected in offerings to other ministries and needs. We paid off our debts when we hit around 25% or so. Now we give away 50% and are not in need.* This is God's REAL economy. No, the point above was pretty in line with what the pastor (Will Davis, Jr.) was trying to convey. The church does not give because has problems, like fears, mistrust in the ministries and so on. If we expect the church to give these problems must be solved (the church of course has many other problems). I watched the message once and listened to it a second time. The passage for his preaching was from 2 Cor 8. verse 7 says, But as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all earnestness, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. (ASV) A church that abounds in everything, faith, utterance, earnestness and love, needs just to be reminded to excel (that's W. D. word for the message) in giving also. I noticed that a year ago you started a similar thread under the title What God's Economy Means to Me Now “When all is said and done, and the dross is burned away, it's this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632CHpeHYZE Love your neighbor as yourself. It is better to give than to receive. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. “ It is obvious that you have a burning desire to see that we all put into practice what our Lord taught us. To this I say Amen, Amen, and Amen! I love what you said, “What? Should we have yet another discussion about how the LCM leaders are bums or how Daystar was a ripoff? Haven't we beaten those dogs to a pulp? This board should be about healing, and speaking for myself, my LCM-tainted attitude toward giving needed healing. Probably some others do, too.” “I'm not condemning, I'm just asking questions that I've been asking myself. The theological outs you guys are throwing into the conversation don't do it for me anymore.” I just disagree with this quotation from the message you posted at the beginning of this thread, "God's plan for solving the problems of the world has never been government. It has always been the Church." "If every church member tithed the Church would collect another $165 billion a year, which would solve the world problems of hunger, thirst, literacy, mission funding... with $100 billion left over." In the message the pastor asks, What if....? and goes on in mentioning what impact the Church could have if.... I would like to add another one. Let's suppose that in the U.S. (for example) there were 50 million Christians. What if each one of them could bring to the Lord 1 soul a year? In less than 3 years the U.S. would be a Christian country from the president to most humble citizen. The Church would not have a “mere” 165 billion a year but trillions. Peace _________________ __________________ TEST ALL THINGS, KEEP THE GOOD

08-24-2016, 04:46 AM	#5
Evangelical Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What It's Really All About Isa. 58:6 "No, the kind of fast I want is that you stop oppressing those who work for you and treat them fairly and give them what they earn. Isa. 58:7 I want you to share your food with the hungry and bring right into your own homes those who are helpless, poor, and destitute. Clothe those who are cold, and don't hide from relatives who need your help. Isa. 58:8 "If you do these things, God will shed his own glorious light upon you. He will heal you; your godliness will lead you forward, goodness will be a shield before you, and the glory of the Lord will protect you from behind. Isa. 58:9 Then, when you call, the Lord will answer. 'Yes, I am here,' he will quickly reply. All you need to do is to stop oppressing the weak and stop making false accusations and spreading vicious rumors! Isa. 58:10 "Feed the hungry! Help those in trouble! Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day. Isa. 58:11 And the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy you with all good things, and keep you healthy too; and you will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring.