Different weights and measures

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee, like Watchman Nee, had a thing for 'spiritual giants'. I don't know where they got this concept. Not from Jesus, nor Paul. The only biblical precedent that I'm aware of is the giants that came out from the abominable union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Why would this be referenced in a positive way by Nee and Lee? I have no idea. Really. What was the genesis (pun intended) of this idea?

Is there any other scriptural basis for this idea? And didn't they see the connection to Genesis 6, and Numbers 13? I find the idea of 'giants' to be abhorrent. Really. Am I over-reacting, here?

And the Final Giant. . . they didn't even dare print that one. But I heard them talk about it, when Lee passed. The age had turned, they said. . . did anyone else hear this kind of talk, that the age of spiritual giants was over? What is the source of such talk?

I heard it numerous times, as if the age was transitioning from the MOTA to the BOTA (that's the body of the age, you know the "body" at LSM, all supported by those Local "merely the procedure" Churches to access the New Jerusalem.

On a more sober note, I always felt that the talk about the age of spiritual giants was over was a shot over the bow aimed at Titus Chu (and apparently Dong Yu Lan). Lee always spoke in coded terms. Nothing repeated was said by accident. Words always had two meanings.

Lee knew the power struggle that would occur when he died. (Happened with every other MOTA before him, and including Lee himself.) He knew that none of the Blendeds could stand up to TC personally, so Lee isolated him against all his loyalists. All the Blendeds were prepped by Lee ahead of time, perhaps even hinting the need to quarantine him "for the body," you know like how they killed Jesus in order to save the nation of Israel.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I heard it numerous times, as if the age was transitioning...

Thanks for the confirmation. Interesting observation about the possible connection to the power struggles that followed.

What's really striking to me, is how they never even bothered to find a single relevant Bible verse. I mean, this is the local church! But here, "Scripture?! We don't need no scripture!" Not even the pretense of being bible-based.

[least]

Hey Aron
WL did not like 'Different weights and measures'. Below 2 paragraphs in life study of minor prophets.
*****
The prophets are great in their speaking about Christ but not in their speaking about other things. We may use Micah and Amos as examples. On the one hand, they both prophesied concerning Christ; on the other hand, they both spoke about such a small thing as deceitful balances. Amos said that the corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit (8:5). Concerning this, Micah said, “Are there yet treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, / And a scant measure that is abominable? / Shall I be pure with wicked balances / And with a bag of deceitful weights?” (6:10-11). Both prophets observed that the people used one measure for buying and a different measure for selling and that their weights and balances were deceitful. The word of Amos and Micah about such a small matter cannot compare with the greatness of their word concerning Christ.
……. ……… ………
In contrast, Amos and Micah used many more chapters than Joel to speak of things other than Christ. When these prophets spoke concerning Christ, they spoke great things, but when they expressed their own natural concept and opinion, they were like some of the psalmists. For instance, Micah 6:8 says, “He has declared to you, O man, what is good; / And what does Jehovah require of you, / But that you would execute justice and love lovingkindness / And walk humbly with your God?” Is this word according to the tree of life or according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Surely it is according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is this word according to the divine revelation or according to the human concept of the prophet? This word is not a matter of God’s revelation but of the prophet’s concept.
*****

"corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit" according to WL were small matters.

"execute justice and love lovingkindness" and "walk humbly with your God" to WL were surely according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[aron]

Originally Posted by least

"corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit" according to WL were small matters.

"execute justice and love lovingkindness" and "walk humbly with your God" to WL were surely according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

least,

this shows WL's denigration of scripture didn't stop with the Psalms, James, Jude, Peter, Job, and Proverbs. Apparently the minor prophets also didn't get it, either. Where in the NT reception is the precedence for such assessments of scripture? No, we repeatedly find the opposite. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Where does the NT begin to suggest dismissing scripture on such vast scale?

And if Lee was so enamored of finding Christ, how about that Jesus was the One who walked humbly with God? Jesus was the One whose heart was pure? Jesus was the One in whom the Father delighted? Jesus who trusted in the Father, who then raised Him from the pangs of death? Our faith is not in ourselves, but in Him - His life, His works, His righteousness, His purity, His love, and yes His faith. The NT apostles clearly indicated this, over and over. This prophetic utterance was concerning Christ, not merely the vain self-reflection of some pious OT saint in his natural concepts. By faith, this Jesus then becomes our life, our hope, our faith, our testimony, and our journey.

Lastly, Lee did like saying that we need to be this and that. All sorts of requirements were placed upon our character and person, as NT believers enjoying grace. Any HWFMR outline is full of "must's" and "need to's" and "have to's" and "should's" and "ought to's" ... but all this supposed NT 'enjoyment' and 'reality' was not built upon faith in Jesus Christ, because the justice, humility, and loving-kindness in the OT scripture, all arguably pointing to God's coming Christ, had been summarily dismissed.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Lastly, Lee did like saying that we need to be this and that. All sorts of requirements were placed upon our character and person, as NT believers enjoying grace. Any HWFMR outline is full of "must's" and "need to's" and "have to's" and "should's" and "ought to's" ... but all this supposed NT 'enjoyment' and 'reality' was not built upon faith in Jesus Christ, because the justice, humility, and loving-kindness in the OT scripture, all arguably pointing to God's coming Christ, had been summarily dismissed.

In my LC experience, there came a point in time when I realized the disconnect between what is spoken and what is actually practiced in the LC. It was hard to reconcile this disconnect, it just didn't seem possible. We were all convinced that what was spoken represented an absolute truth.

LC members are quite often told to stop all their 'doing' and just rely on grace. They will be told that in the church life there are no regulations. People will say that in the church-life everything that happens is according to 'life'. But what is the dark and ugly side of it? What is lurking in the shadows? It's the fact that the LC is among the most legalistic and oppressive groups out there. At the surface everything seems positive and carefree. Anyone who has been around for a decent among of time knows all of the unspoken rules, the do's, the must's, etc.

When such things are confronted they are immediately excused as being necessary. They will say that our character needs to be built up. They will say things like "life grows through regulation." The excuses abound.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In my LC experience. . . the LC is among the most legalistic and oppressive groups out there. At the surface everything seems positive and carefree. Anyone who has been around for a decent among of time knows all of the unspoken rules, the do's, the must's, etc.

When such things are confronted they are immediately excused as being necessary. They will say that our character needs to be built up. They will say things like "life grows through regulation." The excuses abound.

Yes, we must be regulated, right? Another word I heard becoming popular was that we need to be "restricted." But the regulations of the LC are worse than the regulations of the OT which are breezily dismissed as vain concepts of men. Why? Because the OT declarations pointed to the One who kept God's command, and opened the way for those who could not, because of the weakness of the flesh, please God.

See Peter's speech in Acts 2. The illiterate fisherman got it right. It's not complicated. The OT declaration prophetically pointed to its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Instead we rejected the prophetic text and replaced it with new traditions of men, culturally-derived, shaped and molded through the fallen human psyche, according to temporal exigencies on the ground. Those become our new restrictions and regulations.

And they're untrustworthy and are not good (objectively validated) measures. If Witness Lee said you have "more God", then you're all set? Please, Lord, have mercy on us.