Witness Lee and AW Tozer

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Anyone can explain Christmas in a way that is not pagan.

Christmas is an opportunity to preach the gospel about Jesus incarnation to unbelievers.

That's true it has some benefits.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's true it has some benefits.

So then, "deification" a term much more closely aligned with paganism and idolatry yet is acceptable to Witness Lee due to Christian traditional teaching, but Christmas is not acceptable to him and there is no room for compromise because of the pagan history of this. According to Witness Lee traditional teaching on Christmas does not justify it, rather it condemns Christianity because they are mixing pagan practices into their worship. However, he admits that deification was a pagan practice, he admits the term can be blasphemous, yet in this case the traditional Christian teaching on it does justify his acceptance. Is this double minded?

If not, why not?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, why is it that "deification" a term much more closely aligned with paganism and idolatry can be acceptable due to Christian traditional teaching, but Christmas cannot?

On the other hand if the same reasoning can be applied to both then why does Witness Lee say there can be no compromise concerning Christmas, and concerning traditional Christian teaching on Christology. Yet he embraces traditional Christian teaching on Deification as justification for his teaching?

Because it's not about the terms and labels but the origins. Christmas actually came from paganism, that is a historical fact. Deification did not.

You know some of the denominations are those that celebrate Christmas and Easter but ignore the biblical commands of the Lord. For example they will never fail to observe Christmas and Easter but they do not observe the sacraments of baptism and Communion. This is clear proof they have degraded into paganizing ways, away from Christ and the bible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because it's not about the terms and labels but the origins. Christmas actually came from paganism, that is a historical fact. Deification did not.

You know some of the denominations are those that celebrate Christmas and Easter but ignore the biblical commands of the Lord. For example they will never fail to observe Christmas and Easter but they do not observe the sacraments of baptism and Communion. This is clear proof they have degraded into paganizing ways, away from Christ and the bible.

Sanctification did not come from paganism. Holiness did not come from paganism.

Making a man a god is paganism. That is the definition. Whether it is the Pharaoh or Caesar. Witness Lee could have chosen to use the word sanctification, and did do that for the first 50 years of his ministry. During this time he warned about avoiding the term deification because it was pagan. But then in 1994 he all of sudden switched saying this was a "high peak truth". He referred to traditional Christian teachers (Athanasius) who earlier in his ministry he condemned for mixing pagan practices and teachings with the Christian worship and saying that these teachings resulted in divisions.

On the other hand Jeremiah refers to the Christmas tree as a vain idol. It was a celebration that took place to celebrate the rebirth of the sun God. It was originally part of a pagan holiday. Traditional Christian teachers adopted this holiday, changed the name to Christmas. The story of Jesus birth is not in any way pagan, nor does it have pagan roots. The name "Christmas" is not pagan. Placing a star on top of the tree is not rooted in paganism but in the NT story of Jesus. There is nothing pagan about colored lights.

So then, what is pagan about Christmas? 1. The date -- certainly not the day that Jesus was born. December 25th is the first day when you can see the Sun rise in the sky with the naked eye. 2. The use of a tree can be seen as a vain idol. 3. The purpose of the holiday to make merchandise of you.

Since Dec 25th is a national holiday it is a very convenient time for a church to meet. No one is complaining if they meet on other holidays. No one has to use a tree and no one has to buy stuff they don't want.

There is nothing pagan about using this day to tell the story of Jesus birth.

Since I teach Earth Science I have learned that very few, if any of my students know that December 25th is the first day you can see the sun rise with your eyes. They all know about Christmas, they all know about Jesus birth, they all know about the wise men and the star. Yet none of them know about the winter solstice. They have not been celebrating a pagan holiday, they have been celebrating Jesus incarnation.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is nothing pagan about using this day to tell the story of Jesus birth...

Normally, people try their best to celebrate a person's birthday on the actual date. If anyone really cared for Jesus's birthday, they would celebrate it on the proper day (or close enough to it), and not some date which just so happens to be a pagan festival date. In fact, the only reason we celebrate Christmas today, is not because God or the Bible told us to, but because some ancient religious folk thought it would be a good idea to placate the European pagans. If it is not pagan, then it is at least something that God did not tell us to do. In fact the week by week communion has more importance and direct command from the Lord than Christmas, and which one do we practice the more and pay most attention to? I know that most denominations do not pay much attention to communion, but they do their best to uphold Christmas and Easter. Likewise, most Christian parents would make sure they tell their children about Christmas and Easter, but do they stress the importance and joy of weekly communion? I would say most children of Christian parents know more about Santa and the Easter bunny than the significance of the bread and wine of communion.

[ZNPaaneah]

What did God tell us to do? To go out into the whole pagan world and preach the gospel, baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.

So then, if a congregation is doing just that why would you have a problem?

I have been to a number of Christmas and Easter plays that do not have any mention or reference to Santa or the Easter bunny.

You are so focused on the negative you can't see any other options. Like realizing that a smart phone or computer has become an "idol" to some that you don't realize it is the tool you are using to post on this forum.

[Evangelical]

That doesn't mean adopting their practices and pretending it is Christ's birthday on a pagan day when it actually isn't. Congregations do what? Do nothing. Everybody knows that churches hold Christmas services, the attendance swells with people who don't normally go to church, they go home to their celebrations and gift unwrapping. That is nothing like the gospel preaching that verse you quoted describes.